descending fear

[Seth Cooper]

About 5 years ago on a multi-day ride (DALMAC) I hit my highest speed on a V20, 48 mph (GPS) descending a hill in northern lower MI.
I am riding that ride again this year, and will likely see that hill again. I was scared going down it the first time, and now I wonder if I will slow myself, or speed up to hit 50mph? I can't decide. In the intervening years I have gone down 3-4 times at much slower speeds (5-10-20mph) and that was bad enough.

How do you fast descenders do it? I keep thinking of that small flaw in the pavement, or small rock or just a wobble of the frame that I can't recover...
What if I wore some motorcycle gear ? armored bike shorts and elbow pads anyone? I am fine at 30-40 mph but over that it is exhilarating sure but it is pucker time too.

 

[IyhelM]

First rule: stay safe! The more you think about your fear, the less relaxed you are on the bike and the more likely to get your eyes fixed on the wrong thing (rock, hole, gravel bank, etc.) which is a sure way to disaster. So if you don’t feel it, just slow down, it’s okay.

Not sure if additional protective gear is the right remedy as it may give you a false sense of safety and lead you to take more risks.

That being said… the faster you go, the less sensitive to small bumps you are…

Also remember that you are not the only one on the road and whatever confidence you may have in your abilities and your gear, you can never discard car drivers’ idiocy so always keep some extra margin especially if you don’t have proper visibility - I just had a scare last Sunday because of a moron who took a hairpin on the wrong lane.

I used to be rather uncomfortable over 35 mph, whatever the bike, with experience I’m getting fine hitting 45ish so I really don’t consider myself a good descender but I don’t care

 

[DavidCH]

I found that to make sure your wheels are balanced properly helps and that a circular chainring doesn't influence the balance when putting on power. I found oval chainrings were better for acceleration with bigger cranks but now I have small cranks 150mm then I prefer smaller round chainrings

 

[JerseyJim]

48 mph is pretty dang fast. There's not much difference between 48 mph and 50 mph.

Descending quickly is a skill like anything else, and that skill is best built up in increments. The way I have approached descending is to systematically eliminate variables that erode my confidence.

First, I make sure everything is right mechanically with my bike. Brakes, wheels, tires all need to be in good shape and working correctly. Next, I want to be on a hill that I know. That is, I know the pavement condition and the turns and where I'm likely to encounter cars, people, or anything else I need to be concerned about. This also means I know when and where and how much I need to slow down and when I can let it run.

Finally, on that hill I'll practice going faster a little at a time. My average speed on that practice hill will determine my baseline on hills that I don't know. Personally, I don't go for a personal best descending speed on roads I don't know. However, by practicing descending you will raise the average speed at which you are comfortable handling the bike. For me, around 40 mph is plenty fast on roads I don't know. Even though I could go faster, the risk is not worth the reward for me.

I also agree that additional gear, like pads, encourage a false sense of security. You're likely to take more risks with the extra gear on. While fear is something to be overcome, a well developed sense of self preservation is good insurance against preventable injury.

 

[Tuloose]

I have found the one thing that scares me on my V20 is how sketchy it feels on fast downhill runs.
It feels like the slightest side to side movement of the front wheel will send me careening off the road.
I've always felt that a Viscoset headset on the V might dampen the steering enough to instill more confidence in my downhill runs.
Sadly Viscosets are not adaptable to the integrated headsets on the Vendettas.

Recently I purchased an S40 equipped with a Viscoset and 32mm Maxis tires and I have no qualms giving this bike full rein downhill.
It just feels so much more confidence inspiring than the V.
Robert H remarked when the V20c first came out that a Viscoset was not needed on the new bike because they had tweaked the geometry to make it more stable.
Have any V20c owners noticed this improvement in handling over the V20?

 

[Seth Cooper]

48 mph is pretty dang fast. There's not much difference between 48 mph and 50 mph.

Descending quickly is a skill like anything else, and that skill is best built up in increments. The way I have approached descending is to systematically eliminate variables that erode my confidence.

First, I make sure everything is right mechanically with my bike. Brakes, wheels, tires all need to be in good shape and working correctly. Next, I want to be on a hill that I know. That is, I know the pavement condition and the turns and where I'm likely to encounter cars, people, or anything else I need to be concerned about. This also means I know when and where and how much I need to slow down and when I can let it run.

Finally, on that hill I'll practice going faster a little at a time. My average speed on that practice hill will determine my baseline on hills that I don't know. Personally, I don't go for a personal best descending speed on roads I don't know. However, by practicing descending you will raise the average speed at which you are comfortable handling the bike. For me, around 40 mph is plenty fast on roads I don't know. Even though I could go faster, the risk is not worth the reward for me.

I also agree that additional gear, like pads, encourage a false sense of security. You're likely to take more risks with the extra gear on. While fear is something to be overcome, a well developed sense of self preservation is good insurance against preventable injury.

all good points. The fact is there are not a lot of big hills where I live, and so practicing on well-known downhills just isn't easy. I think a good chunk of my nerves was the fact it was the first time I had gone down that hill.

Re: the desire for some padding / protection and risk normalization. I don't really feel that is a thing for me. I think in general I am just feeling that the more I ride the more likely it is I will go down again, and I really don't want to do that. But I want to ride even more than my fear of crashing is, so I do it. I just think of what the motorcyclists say, "it's not a matter of if, but when. you will have to lay your bike down, and you need to be ready"

 

[Seth Cooper]

I have found the one thing that scares me on my V20 is how sketchy it feels on fast downhill runs.
It feels like the slightest side to side movement of the front wheel will send me careening off the road.
I've always felt that a Viscoset headset on the V might dampen the steering enough to instill more confidence in my downhill runs.
Sadly Viscosets are not adaptable to the integrated headsets on the Vendettas.

Recently I purchased an S40 equipped with a Viscoset and 32mm Maxis tires and I have no qualms giving this bike full rein downhill.
It just feels so much more confidence inspiring than the V.
Robert H remarked when the V20c first came out that a Viscoset was not needed on the new bike because they had tweaked the geometry to make it more stable.
Have any V2oc owners noticed this improvement in handling over the V20?

I am curious about the V20c as well. I am putting mine together as I write this (it is at the LBS getting the brakes bled) so next week I will be able to see if it feels more stable than the v20

 

[JerseyJim]

I just think of what the motorcyclists say, "it's not a matter of if, but when. you will have to lay your bike down, and you need to be ready"

I agree regarding the inevitability of certain things if you ride a bike. As the saying goes, there are 2 types of riders - ones who have fallen and ones who will fall. The same is true for having a flat. That said, there's a huge difference in falling down at 48 mph and falling over as you're coming to a stop because you couldn't get your foot uncliped from the pedal. In other words, speed makes a huge difference in the potential for serious injury.

I've had a motorcycle license since the early 1990s and I've been through the Motorcycle Safety Foundation courses up to the intermediate level. As the name suggests, safety is the focus of the MSF courses and that safety centers around developing situational judgement and riding skills. I think we spent less than a half hour on protective gear in an 8 hour class.

I'd say if you spend a lot of time at pro peloton speeds (25-35 mph) on busy roads, then some extra padding would probably mitigate injury as the higher speed and number of variables increase the probability that you will fall. If you spend most of your time at average cycling speeds (15-20 mph), I'd say the padding may be more of a burden to strap on all the time - but that's just one opinion. Definitely do whatever you need to do to be comfortable and confident on the bike.

 

[chicorider]

This is a great concern to bring up. Climbing is my preferred terrain, which means that I do a lot of descending as well. On my V20--and now V20c--I have made it into the 50+ mph range several times, with my fastest speed hitting 65 mph (that was on my V20). I don't ride with numbers in front of me, so I never know what my top speeds are until after the ride. When I looked at that 65 mph top speed afterward, I remember thinking, "Yikes!" But while it was happening, I felt totally in control. The bike handled the speed well, winds were low, and the road was smooth, mostly straight, and minimally travelled. It's hard to say how that would have gone if I'd have had my speed right in front of me. Probably more nervous, which is usually when trouble starts. It is an insane amount of trust to put into such a svelte machine and the small patches of rubber they roll on, but if I start thinking about everything that could happen on a descent while I'm descending--mostly sudden flat tires, or critters running into the road--then before long I'll find myself creeping down every hill, probably in more danger than I would be otherwise.

I let conditions (mostly road surface quality, but also wind, traffic, and familiarity) dictate how I descend, and only let it fly when the conditions are good. When there is doubt, I make sure to keep myself within my reading of the conditions, whatever those may be, based on my experience so far. If you hit 48 mph and feel comfortable enough, but fear that crossing into the 50's might change that in a negative way, then that is your reading of the conditions of the moment, and staying at or below 48 is smart. Then again, if you don't have your speed in front of you, and you don't know that you've passed 48 mph and slipped into the 50's, you may well still feel in control, even though you are going a little faster. Then you can look at your numbers afterward, see that you hit 54 mph somewhere along the way, and think, "Hmmm... Cool."

 

[chicorider]

Oh, I meant to add a short note on the handling differences while descending on a V20 vs. a V20c. In short, they both rock! Slightly longer version, the V20c feels a little more planted and stable at all speeds. It's a subtle difference--enough to notice, but not enough to put the V20's ability and handling into question.

 

[Seth Cooper]

It is an insane amount of trust to put into such a svelte machine and the small patches of rubber they roll on, but if I start thinking about everything that could happen on a descent while I'm descending--mostly sudden flat tires, or critters running into the road--then before long I'll find myself creeping down every hill, probably in more danger than I would be otherwise.

those are my thoughts exactly.

In balance, going fast is fun, it's why I love the V, and being a little nervous / thrilled is a part of it too. I love feeling the calmness that can come from being focused and relaxed at speed, often I will start humming a bit from Tom Petty's Running down a Dream. "the trees went by, me and the Zipps were singing, little Runaway, I was a-flyin"

 

[Mathew Fy]

fastest speed hitting 65 mph

 

[Tor Hovland]

I can't just "decide to" go faster than my comfort limit. Once I hit a certain speed I can go no faster, no matter how much I would want to. The particular speed varies from day to day and depending on wind conditions, but I never go much above 60 kph.

I too think about having a flat on the front wheel, and I like to think I at least have some chance to slow down and stop if and when that happens.

Having said that, a Cruzbike is really a stable descender, given that you have two hands and two feet keeping the steering steady.

If you are doing a long ride, the speed you do on one particular hill isn't going to make a huge difference overall. Just stick to what you feel comfortable with.

 

[Karl42]

Oh, I meant to add a short note on the handling differences while descending on a V20 vs. a V20c. In short, they both rock! Slightly longer version, the V20c feels a little more planted and stable at all speeds. It's a subtle difference--enough to notice, but not enough to put the V20's ability and handling into question.

Is this with the same set of wheels, or do you have different wheels and tires on each respective bike?
I found that those factors make a huge difference when it comes to descending. When I switched from 45mm to 62mm rims, the initial difference in handling the bike when going downhill was huge. On my first ride with the new wheels I nearly lost control of the bike several times from bursts of side wind when descending. But after a short time I got used to the new wheels and this never happens anymore.
The choice of tires and the tire pressure is probably even a bigger factor.

Apart from that, my old recumbent has a 10cm longer wheelbase than the V20, and has a more conventional rear wheel drive. With that, descending at 80 kph (50 mph) felt more stable than the V20, even with the same set of wheels.

 

[JerseyJim]

If you are doing a long ride, the speed you do on one particular hill isn't going to make a huge difference overall. Just stick to what you feel comfortable with.

Generally, I agree with this. However, on the last leg of a 600 km brevet last year I think my descending skills allowed me to make it to the penultimate controle within the time limit. I didn't take chances and I rode within my skills. I kinda rely on quick descending to make up for my slow climbing. Now that the new brevet rules regarding intermediate controles have taken effect, I shouldn't find myself in that situation anymore.

 

[chicorider]

Is this with the same set of wheels, or do you have different wheels and tires on each respective bike?
I found that those factors make a huge difference when it comes to descending. When I switched from 45mm to 62mm rims, the initial difference in handling the bike when going downhill was huge. On my first ride with the new wheels I nearly lost control of the bike several times from bursts of side wind when descending. But after a short time I got used to the new wheels and this never happens anymore.
The choice of tires and the tire pressure is probably even a bigger factor.

Apart from that, my old recumbent has a 10cm longer wheelbase than the V20, and has a more conventional rear wheel drive. With that, descending at 80 kph (50 mph) felt more stable than the V20, even with the same set of wheels.

Good question. I did build new wheels for the V20c, with the V20 having 36mm deep rims, and the V20c 47mm deep rims. While I suppose there is a difference in how each of those wheelsets handle the winds, I cannot say that I noticed it much. I would imagine that going from 45 to 62mm would make a difference, at least at first. Some of my experience might be due to moving from 25mm tires on the V20 to 30mm tires on the V20c. I did notice an immediate difference there.

 

[Seth Cooper]

I am back from my multi-day ride on the V20c, including the descent that I talked about in the opening post of this thread.
I didn't go as fast as I did years ago when I hit 48mph, this time the GPS said 42. Mostly because the road condition had deteriorated (in my opinion) but also because I wasn't as comfortable on the V20c as I hoped I would be.

I rode a number of small but fast descents over the five days, chances to practice at speeds above 30 mph. I found that with the v20c, below around 32mph, I was in definitely in charge, between 32-38 I was mostly in charge, and above 38, it was very much a dialog as to who was in control of where the bike was going to go next.

I found at those high speeds the bike would tend to wander 3-6 ft around the lane as I didn't want to make sudden movements to the steering, so I had to calmly and patiently make the small tweak to bring it into line, and I had a keen feeling that I wasn't sitting "in" the bike anymore, now I was definitely on top of the bike and in a balancing act like standing on a ball.

Does anyone have the trail geometry measurement for both bikes? I read that the head tube angle was make less steep (iirc 73 deg down to 70 deg) which all other things being equal should result in more trail, but I don't know the other dimensions.

 

[IyhelM]

Wavering by 3-6 ft seems huge - and dangerous.
I can’t speak for ‘modern’ Cruzbikes as I’ve only rode a V1.0 and a S2.2, both with significantly shorter wheelbases than newer Vs and with a reputation of bad handling at speed downhill and yet I’ve always found both bikes pretty stable and sure to handle (at my comfort speeds which means below 40 mph most of the times).
Are we talking freewheeling or pedalling?
Do you feel any wobbling? If so maybe check your wheels, if not, I’d say it may come from you being too crispated on the handlebars and pedals.

 

[Seth Cooper]

It's a little difficult to say precisely what is different. The main geometry difference I can think of is the long chainstay on the v20c is about 1" longer than the one on the v20, and maybe that is making the handling a little more twitchy?

As soon as I got on the V20c and pedaled it around my cul-de-sac I could tell it was stiffer in the front end, and it felt great, and that feeling remains, the axles, the beefier bottom bracket the carbon chain stay and fork and boom all seem to work together to sharpen the handling and I like it a lot. It's easier to ride no hands on this bike IMHO; guiding it around with only my feet seems to require less work.

To answer the question "freewheeling or pedaling" the bike is easier for me to ride fast while pedaling, but I can't pedal over the mid-30s so that is where I transition to freewheel only.

 

[xtalbike]

I have a V20c. It definitely should not be having any problem tracking at speed. The only time I had a problem like that it turned out the front axle wasn’t tightened completely. Wind can also be a problem. I’m happiest with 32-35 mm deep rims. Deeper can be scary at speed in swirly wind. Was it windy on your ride? In good conditions the bike will go exactly where you want it to if you’re relaxed. I sometimes try to stabilize my legs by hugging the boom a bit with my knees. No pressure on the pedals. Consciously relaxing your hands can be good too.