First Crash On the Vendetta

ScottRadliff

New Member
Got a few more rides in, at a relaxed pace. Confidence is building, and the wobble is manageable, so far. Still can't go after a bottle at anything more than a moderate coast. The upper body movement (either through the arm holding the bar, or the shift in balance) sends the bike off its line. That will take a little more time.

My half empty 20oz bottle keeps bouncing out of the Cruzbike Bottle Cage, on the Headrest Cage Mount. Even after I squeeze the cage to hold the bottle tighter. At least once on every ride, I have to stop, turn around, and go back for one. Methinks I am just going to get a CF Race Case, when they become available.

Taking Betty Blue through some turns

Comparing the Vendetta wobble to the Encore's wobble. Definitely think it is in the arms, since the Encore wobbles just as much.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
My opinion may not be worth much because I am technically not part of the tribe (I have a different recumbent, I can't reach for the bars due to a medical issue). I did not go out of the parking lot until the first 19 skills were mastered. It took me two weeks of practicing every day. The checkist in the following was invaluable. I felt like a lost 2 year old. The checklist gave me specific things to focus on.

(I still crashed a few times nonetheless in the early days on my high racer)

https://cruzbike.com/DOWNLOADS/CruzbikeOwnersManualRevP.pdf
 

Kenneth Jessett

Well-Known Member
Unclipping is hazardous and I am getting so that I unclick some distance from where I want to stop - but this is on a trail, there is no way I would ride in traffic clipped in. I also find that riding a recumbent uses different muscles than riding a standard bike where the weight of the body pushed onto the pedals where on a Vendetta the force comes from pushing against the seat and requires greater effort.

Thoughts? :)
 

benphyr

Guru-me-not
@Kenneth Jessett Thoughts? Always! :D
Unclipping is hazardous IF you are not comfortable with it. You should always gain skills to a level of SAFETY that you are comfortable with BEFORE joining traffic. When you are comfortable, THEN being clipped in is great - a huge benefit to a Cruzbike rider. Not everyone should do it nor even try it, but that IF you do ride that way on other bikes or want to spend the time learning there are definite ADVANTAGES: feet being held to the pedal when you want them to be, better control and better focused muscle use. I have been riding with mine for several years and though I was scared to put them on initially as soon as I did put them on I wished I had sooner. They gave me better control, took the worry of foot placement away, and I did not have to constantly hold my feet to the pedals - part of my pedal stroke is pulling when clipped in and that is lost on flats. Additionally, in all that time I have never had any negative incidents with being clipped in - the only incident I had with clipped in happened on my mountain bike in mid-winter when a pedal completely seized and the fact that the other pedal was clipped in allowed me to pedal the remaining couple miles home using one pedal and the other leg out sideways sometimes swinging for momentum - I would have been walking if the other foot could not be clipped to the pedals. I'm pretty sure being clipped in has saved me close calls several times. I do not have a V20 but it seems reasonable that every one of these arguments would apply even more so to the V20. Your mileage may vary, and beginners are advised to get the skills ratz and Cruzbike detail. Don't throw out the clipless pedals with the bath water - save them for later:cruzbike:.
 

ScottRadliff

New Member
Both videos look wobbly to me as do just about every other recumbent video I've ever seen.

Yep. That's the point. Now that I am aware of this, I don't have to try to eliminate the wobble as much on the Vendetta. Just do what I naturally do to keep moving forward.
 

RojoRacing

Donut Powered Wise-guy
Yep. That's the point. Now that I am aware of this, I don't have to try to eliminate the wobble as much on the Vendetta. Just do what I naturally do to keep moving forward.

Oh I thought you were trying to imply one was much better than the other. I'm not sure if it's my ultra steady style of pedaling that lets me hold an exact pace for long stretches but I find a lot of people will hop on my wheel and draft me without covering their brakes because they trust me. This isn't just with people who know me personally ether, I'm talking total strangers on group rides or event on both my DF and V20. A great compliment to my stability on the V20 is when Marko Bolar the world champ sat inches off my rear wheel for 180 miles of a double century and he was in his TT aero bars the whole time. That was the first time we'd gotten to ride together and somewhere in the middle I asked if he felt comfortable following me he said the pace was fast but very steady so it's easy to follow close. Most videos I see on here with bents drafting each other they don't draft as close and honestly I see enough random wobbling that I wouldn't feel comfortable drafting them too closely ether. To be fare even thought DF bikes are more stable I'd only estimate about 30% of them I wouldn't want to draft.

One of these days we'll put together a team TT effort with Team Cruzbike and I'll get to see how stable everyone is in close proximity.
 

paco1961

Zen MBB Master
About 3 months in on the S40 - first bent bike - and much steadier now than 6 weeks ago. My usual group of hammerheads are now hopping on my wheel and sitting there for much longer than when I rode my DFs. I’m still not comfy following in a tight pace line but that will come. But I don’t think I’ll ever be as rock steady on the CB. Just a different animal.

One of the things that makes tight following tough on a CB is the reduced visibility. Never realized how much time I used to spend (on DF) looking over the left shoulder of the rider in front of me. Sitting lower makes this tough and keeps me off the lead wheel more than normal.
 

Gary123

Zen MBB Master
No way I follow as close on recumbent. Can't see wheels and feet and sprocket aimed at lead riders rear end. Recipe for dis(ass)ter.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Can anyone ride a straight line on a bent? You know like ride the white fog line. I keep trying and have gotten better but can't do it.
 

Jeffrey Ritter

Well-Known Member
Wow, such a great discussion of the evolution of competence that I feel comfortable sharing my own lessons. So, in a mind dump and hopefully roughly chronological on the learning curve.
1. Do not try to learn by leaning back at the start. Sit up and let your muscle memory of riding a tricycle connect. Actually its a lot like a Big Wheel that way and, then, once you are pedaling smoothly lean back into the seat. This is likely true for any model, but especially for older Silvio 3.0 and Vendettas.
2. Learn without clips. If you have a lot of experience with clips, you will quickly feel naked without them and, once you get clipped in, everything changes for the better.
3. Yes, learn on empty roads and parking lots. The only access roads out of our 'hood are narrow two lane country roads (with heavy traffic as development has encroached onto the countryside) with either 3% or 5% grades. It was only this week I finally felt sufficiently non-wobbly and in control to ride out of my driveway and tackle those climbs without any concern I would hold a steady line with passing traffic.
4. Cautioned that a lot more glute muscle is involved, I learned these bikes require a lot of core strength and stability, especially for climbing. Get off the bike and integrate in real strength and core work. Happy to share the portfolio of exercises I have evolved through (working with a professional therapist and coach is an indulgence but was necessary for me, but happy to share what I was given).
5. Yes riding a fog line is possible, but someone else posted a key technique issue for stability--higher spinning cadence than on a DF. Your front wheel and front crank, more than on a DF, are like gyroscopes. The faster they spin, the more stable they are. What happens is that, as you spin faster, your legs begin to be the controlling balancing force, not tugs and pulls on the handlebars. The result is much, much smoother lines. On climbing that also means shifting up more than you might on a DF to really spin up-once that is figured out, the climbs and the fog lines come together nicely.
6. I actually do feel comfortable in a pace line where you can have trust in the riders ahead, no less than on a regular DF. What is tricky is remembering your crank is the most forward part of your equipment--especially important if you are cruising along in your small ring and have the teeth of the big ring exposed. Yesterday, I joined a group that did 45 miles and though we were not pace-lining, it seemed we were all comfortable with me in the line, and also on the front.
7. Wobbling is, I think, a consequence of all of the preceding not being mastered. This is my second full summer on a cruzbike, having no prior recumbent experience, and my wife often drives SAG on my long efforts. She is the best witness and states nearly every time how different I now look on the road. Which also means I am more efficient, which means energy is going into the pedals rather than correcting wobbles.
8. The neat thing about the core work is that, on a climb, it also allows you to sit up and shift your hips slightly back (on my Silvio). That opens up your IT band and hip flexors a bit and also enables the spinning better on the climbs.

The results of all of this, halfway through my second year on my Silvio--logging 125-175 miles a week, comfortably nearing or exceeding 20 mph on the flats (with low power output) and often doing steady climbs up to 7% in my big ring. Last week, I even climbed my nemesis--a 300 meter climb at 14%!

Good luck to everyone.
 

tiltmaniac

Zen MBB Master
Can anyone ride a straight line on a bent? You know like ride the white fog line. I keep trying and have gotten better but can't do it.

Certainly. The fog-line is often the smoothest part of the road, so one is incented to be able to ride it! :)

Imho, it is harder on a more leaned-back bike than a more upright one.
 

paco1961

Zen MBB Master
Wow, such a great discussion of the evolution of competence that I feel comfortable sharing my own lessons. So, in a mind dump and hopefully roughly chronological on the learning curve.
1. Do not try to learn by leaning back at the start. Sit up and let your muscle memory of riding a tricycle connect. Actually its a lot like a Big Wheel that way and, then, once you are pedaling smoothly lean back into the seat. This is likely true for any model, but especially for older Silvio 3.0 and Vendettas.
2. Learn without clips. If you have a lot of experience with clips, you will quickly feel naked without them and, once you get clipped in, everything changes for the better.
3. Yes, learn on empty roads and parking lots. The only access roads out of our 'hood are narrow two lane country roads (with heavy traffic as development has encroached onto the countryside) with either 3% or 5% grades. It was only this week I finally felt sufficiently non-wobbly and in control to ride out of my driveway and tackle those climbs without any concern I would hold a steady line with passing traffic.
4. Cautioned that a lot more glute muscle is involved, I learned these bikes require a lot of core strength and stability, especially for climbing. Get off the bike and integrate in real strength and core work. Happy to share the portfolio of exercises I have evolved through (working with a professional therapist and coach is an indulgence but was necessary for me, but happy to share what I was given).
5. Yes riding a fog line is possible, but someone else posted a key technique issue for stability--higher spinning cadence than on a DF. Your front wheel and front crank, more than on a DF, are like gyroscopes. The faster they spin, the more stable they are. What happens is that, as you spin faster, your legs begin to be the controlling balancing force, not tugs and pulls on the handlebars. The result is much, much smoother lines. On climbing that also means shifting up more than you might on a DF to really spin up-once that is figured out, the climbs and the fog lines come together nicely.
6. I actually do feel comfortable in a pace line where you can have trust in the riders ahead, no less than on a regular DF. What is tricky is remembering your crank is the most forward part of your equipment--especially important if you are cruising along in your small ring and have the teeth of the big ring exposed. Yesterday, I joined a group that did 45 miles and though we were not pace-lining, it seemed we were all comfortable with me in the line, and also on the front.
7. Wobbling is, I think, a consequence of all of the preceding not being mastered. This is my second full summer on a cruzbike, having no prior recumbent experience, and my wife often drives SAG on my long efforts. She is the best witness and states nearly every time how different I now look on the road. Which also means I am more efficient, which means energy is going into the pedals rather than correcting wobbles.
8. The neat thing about the core work is that, on a climb, it also allows you to sit up and shift your hips slightly back (on my Silvio). That opens up your IT band and hip flexors a bit and also enables the spinning better on the climbs.

The results of all of this, halfway through my second year on my Silvio--logging 125-175 miles a week, comfortably nearing or exceeding 20 mph on the flats (with low power output) and often doing steady climbs up to 7% in my big ring. Last week, I even climbed my nemesis--a 300 meter climb at 14%!

Good luck to everyone.
Nice summary of your experience. I find that at this point in my learning curve I'm comfortably cruising on the flats about 3mph faster (23 vs 20)at what I perceive to be about the same effort on a DF but at about 10% lower cadence. On DF I typically averaged 90-95 for a full 30-50 mile ride while on the CB I'm finding myself cruising in the low 80s. On climbs I am definitely averaging 10% or so higher cadence on the CB - most likely coming from not standing and mashing - but not entirely because of sitting through the whole climb. Getting much better at spinning more up the hills . . . probably closer to what I should have been doing on a DF!
 

cpml123

Zen MBB Master
Wow, such a great discussion of the evolution of competence that I feel comfortable sharing my own lessons. So, in a mind dump and hopefully roughly chronological on the learning curve.
1. Do not try to learn by leaning back at the start. Sit up and let your muscle memory of riding a tricycle connect. Actually its a lot like a Big Wheel that way and, then, once you are pedaling smoothly lean back into the seat. This is likely true for any model, but especially for older Silvio 3.0 and Vendettas.
2. Learn without clips. If you have a lot of experience with clips, you will quickly feel naked without them and, once you get clipped in, everything changes for the better.
3. Yes, learn on empty roads and parking lots. The only access roads out of our 'hood are narrow two lane country roads (with heavy traffic as development has encroached onto the countryside) with either 3% or 5% grades. It was only this week I finally felt sufficiently non-wobbly and in control to ride out of my driveway and tackle those climbs without any concern I would hold a steady line with passing traffic.
4. Cautioned that a lot more glute muscle is involved, I learned these bikes require a lot of core strength and stability, especially for climbing. Get off the bike and integrate in real strength and core work. Happy to share the portfolio of exercises I have evolved through (working with a professional therapist and coach is an indulgence but was necessary for me, but happy to share what I was given).
5. Yes riding a fog line is possible, but someone else posted a key technique issue for stability--higher spinning cadence than on a DF. Your front wheel and front crank, more than on a DF, are like gyroscopes. The faster they spin, the more stable they are. What happens is that, as you spin faster, your legs begin to be the controlling balancing force, not tugs and pulls on the handlebars. The result is much, much smoother lines. On climbing that also means shifting up more than you might on a DF to really spin up-once that is figured out, the climbs and the fog lines come together nicely.
6. I actually do feel comfortable in a pace line where you can have trust in the riders ahead, no less than on a regular DF. What is tricky is remembering your crank is the most forward part of your equipment--especially important if you are cruising along in your small ring and have the teeth of the big ring exposed. Yesterday, I joined a group that did 45 miles and though we were not pace-lining, it seemed we were all comfortable with me in the line, and also on the front.
7. Wobbling is, I think, a consequence of all of the preceding not being mastered. This is my second full summer on a cruzbike, having no prior recumbent experience, and my wife often drives SAG on my long efforts. She is the best witness and states nearly every time how different I now look on the road. Which also means I am more efficient, which means energy is going into the pedals rather than correcting wobbles.
8. The neat thing about the core work is that, on a climb, it also allows you to sit up and shift your hips slightly back (on my Silvio). That opens up your IT band and hip flexors a bit and also enables the spinning better on the climbs.

The results of all of this, halfway through my second year on my Silvio--logging 125-175 miles a week, comfortably nearing or exceeding 20 mph on the flats (with low power output) and often doing steady climbs up to 7% in my big ring. Last week, I even climbed my nemesis--a 300 meter climb at 14%!

Good luck to everyone.
Jeff - Would you please share your work out exercises? I have found over the past couple months that my core, glutes and hamstrings really need serious strengthening. My lower back was sore every time I came back from riding my S40, not to mention my arms and hands getting sore/numb because of death grip.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Certainly. The fog-line is often the smoothest part of the road, so one is incented to be able to ride it! :)

Imho, it is harder on a more leaned-back bike than a more upright one.

Thanks, I'll keep working on it. Looking at youtube videos some bent riders barely keep in the lane. I am improving and will get there someday.
 

jond

Zen MBB Master
Aha aha eureka moment the answer to your wobble............

looking closely minutely at your cycling shoes in the most recent video comparison
of bikes.

Clearly you have trodden in schlitter on your cycling shoes and this should be wiped off and disinfected.

Seriously now my mates got a schlitter and it’s a beautiful bike. I’d be very interested in your seasoned comparison between the two when you have mastered the vendetta.

Thanks Scott.
 
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