Getting Going: Learning to Ride a Cruzbike in a Week

xkred27

Member
Today the wife and I went for a leisurely ride around the neighborhood, she on her Electra Townie, I on my one-week-old Silvio. As I pedaled into and through a corner, I reached back, grabbed my water bottle from its cage, took a swig and replaced it. I have learned a lot in a week of ownership and about 7 hours of riding. Here's what I did to gain what I reckon is about 90 percent proficiency.
1. Day 1: Get acquainted day. Start without crashing. Go slow. Corner without pedaling. Keep it simple. Aim for riding a straight line, being able to start up with reasonable consistency and corner without pedaling. If you start to freak out, take your feet off the pedals and steer w/ your arms. Let that be your fallback whenever you thing you're getting into trouble.
2. Day 2: I've divided my 1-hour rides into a half hour of "drills" and a half hour of "free riding". The former focused on one particular movement; the latter on just riding. This first half hour drill was to ride one-handed with my dominant hand. Not too challenging, but not too easy, either. During the free ride, I cornered faster and while pedaling.
3. Day 3: Drill: One-handed riding with the non-dominant hand. This one was a real bast**d. With my left hand, the Silvio would inexplicably veer toward a ditch. My arm was so tense from "fighting", I had to stop and rest midway through. But (and this is important), at the end of the half hour, I was pretty good. What really helped in this exercise was to ride one-handed dominant hand, then switch to the non-dominant hand, then go back and forth repeatedly at 10-second intervals. In this way, the left hand "remembered" what the right had just been doing and more easily imitated it. During the free ride, I rode a pot-holed disaster of a country lane to see how everything reacted to the jarring. The suspension was sweet, the handling a challenge. I also descended a hill at moderate speed and---even with no pedaling---began veering in wider and wider arcs as I descended. Hard to explain.
5. Day 5: Burned out on drills so just free-rode the entire hour. Took my normal luchtime 1-hour circut, which included a steep hill. On the back side of this hill, I usually hit 42-43mph on my Stratus, and it has a wicked right dogleg at the bottom. The ascent was marred only by my losing balance midway and having dismount and walk to the top. I held nothing back on the descent, and although I haven't installed my computer yet, am sure I hit mid 30's (mph) with no apprehension.
6. Day 6: Rest day. No ride.
7. Day 7: Swapped out the platform pedals for the clip-ins. Installed water bottle cage. Clipped in, took off, quickly engaged the other foot, and had no problems. Swigged H2O, enjoyed being clipped in and, all in all, felt I'd come pretty close in a week to conquering this baby. My drill this time consisted of getting the water bottle and replacing it. Out of the cage, to the mouth, back to the cage. Maybe 20 or 30 times.

I think drilling on individual skills was in invaluable part of this process. Pick whatever skill group you fancy, and spend half an hour beating it to death. I guarantee that a) there'll be plenty of times at the start of the half hour when you'll be cursing and gnashing your teeth and that b) at the end of every one of those half hours you will have gained immeasurably in confidence and skill. At least that's what has worked for me. I hope it does for you, too.

My initial goal was to be Master of my Domain within 100 hours. At this point, I think that even half that time is wildly conservative. So take heart, keep at it, and congratulate yourself for every step forward.
 

Mark B

Zen MBB Master
Nice report, Peter and congrats. It sounds like you're taking a workman's approach to mastering the bike, but the rewards will be immense.

I'd be willing to bet that once you get a 'puter on your Silvio, you'll discover you're going much faster than you think. I know that was the case for me. I've been on my bike for about a a month and had no idea how fast I was going. I can get mine going 30 mph pretty easily on relatively flat roads. :eek: I was shocked! Mind you, I can't maintain that very long, but low to mid twenties are easily doable even in as pathetic of condition as I'm in. The funny think is, it sure doesn't feel like you're going that fast. Even just the roll down factor, my bike, rolling on Campy Mirage hubs, rolls away from people that are pedaling just to keep up.

Mark
 

Kamatu

Well-Known Member
Day 3 unexplained wobble: Bet you were tightening up too much to compensate for tiny wobbles automatically, possibly for minor road surface defect. I've got the same problem some, but not as bad, reflexes I think.
 

Mark B

Zen MBB Master
Kamatu wrote: Day 3 unexplained wobble: Bet you were tightening up too much to compensate for tiny wobbles automatically, possibly for minor road surface defect. I've got the same problem some, but not as bad, reflexes I think.

Yep, I agree. I've been on the bike for a month and just learning to relax and let it rip on downhills. Even then, I still catch myself feathering the brakes because the darned thing rolls to high speeds so quickly. Much, much moreso than any other recumbent I've owned.

Mark
 

xkred27

Member
johntolhurst wrote: A roll down top speed vis a vis the Stratus will be interesting.

I have a nice 1km straight slope I use for such purposes and will provide test info in the next few weeks. Of course, it's sort of apples and oranges, as the Stratus is not only lower, but faired, too. OTOH, the Silvio is running 700x28's while the Stratus has a 26x1.5 in the back and 20x1.3 in the front. So more rolling resistance. May also swap out the 700x28's (Specialized Armadillos: bomb-proof tonnage) for some 700x25 Vredestein Fortezza Tri-comps, just to add to the mix.
 

Mark B

Zen MBB Master
xkred27 wrote:
johntolhurst wrote: A roll down top speed vis a vis the Stratus will be interesting.

I have a nice 1km straight slope I use for such purposes and will provide test info in the next few weeks. Of course, it's sort of apples and oranges, as the Stratus is not only lower, but faired, too. OTOH, the Silvio is running 700x28's while the Stratus has a 26x1.5 in the back and 20x1.3 in the front. So more rolling resistance. May also swap out the 700x28's (Specialized Armadillos: bomb-proof tonnage) for some 700x25 Vredestein Fortezza Tri-comps, just to add to the mix.

Armadillos really are heavy and they roll pretty tough. At least, they used to. I quit running them when I discovered Gatorskins. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest you reduce the air pressure in your front tire to, say, 90 pounds and bump your rear tire up to 100-110, whatever it can take. For me, the front shock needs to be around 110#. This is the setup that's working real well for me to date, YMMV. So much depends on your road conditions. We have a lot of choppy streets and I need the suspension very active to keep the front wheel on the ground and the tire biting.

Mark
 

Kamatu

Well-Known Member
Mark B wrote:
Kamatu wrote: Day 3 unexplained wobble: Bet you were tightening up too much to compensate for tiny wobbles automatically, possibly for minor road surface defect. I've got the same problem some, but not as bad, reflexes I think.

Yep, I agree. I've been on the bike for a month and just learning to relax and let it rip on downhills. Even then, I still catch myself feathering the brakes because the darned thing rolls to high speeds so quickly. Much, much moreso than any other recumbent I've owned.

Mark

The bike is fast, no doubt about that. We finally managed yesterday to arrange a short "family" trip (my little half mile learning loop that I've been taking my son on) since I finally put the spare upright back together (parts stolen for the conversion originally :mrgreen: ). With the wife shepherding the boy, I got to open it up on a downhill straight. Oh yeah.

Monday, I simply drove away from my nephew with ease and he is used to being able to make me push to keep up with him.

The two times I've gone "on woad Daddy" with the bike, I ended up doing a lot of scooting to keep an eye on him. Not the best learning experience, for me at least. Hammering uphill is going to require more reflexes since I got the bad wobblies back, but I'm learning to ride some on the side of the tires as I go. ;)

I think I've gotten a better handle on the steering issues (the whys of it), but I need a confirmation from riders of the different styles. There are three steering setups on the Cruzbikes, Sofrider/Conversion - "normal" fork based steering, Freerider - mid TFT steering forward of the forks, Silvio - TFT centered steering. I'm willing to bet that the "heaviness" of the steering that gives the tendency to snap around the front end goes from worst to best as you move down that list.
 

Mark B

Zen MBB Master
The Silvio is still front end heavy, but rolling down the road the handling is pretty comparable. The steering on the Silvio is a little more responsive, which makes it feel a little twitchy when you get off the conversion and jump on it. It takes about 30 seconds to dial it back in and head on down the road.

Mark
 

Kamatu

Well-Known Member
Mark B wrote: The Silvio is still front end heavy, but rolling down the road the handling is pretty comparable. The steering on the Silvio is a little more responsive, which makes it feel a little twitchy when you get off the conversion and jump on it. It takes about 30 seconds to dial it back in and head on down the road.

Mark

You have a lot more miles on bikes than I do of more types, so I understand what you are saying, I do the same thing on equipment I'm more familiar with.

I'm pointing out that mechanically, the three styles have different steering axes/leverage points (yes they all turn at the same spot on the frame) with different moment arms. The Sofrider/Kit bikes have the longest distance from where your input is going in and the heavy weight (BB) at the end of the bike, the Silvio has the shortest. Ahhh, I'm saying this wrong I think, it has been far too long since I did this kind of stuff.

On the Silvio, you are inputting directly in line with the TFT and BB, which should make it easier (and more responsive or "twitchy"), but on the Kit, you are inputting at 90 degrees (roughly) from the BB. The Kit is more natural "feeling" to hop on and ride for someone like me with no recumbent experience, but the steering reacts differently from an upright. I think the reverse would be true if I rode a Silvio, it wouldn't "feel" right, but I'd have less trouble with the way the steering reacts.

Look at it this way, when I turn an upright bike (speaking simply) to the right say: I pull with my right hand/push with my left hand with X amount of force and then pull/push with the left/right to straighten back out. Because of the moment arm (yeah, that may not be right, but I'm not digging out an old textbook right now, if I still have it), I get more result from a Kit than a Silvio. IOW, the BB swings faster and an object in motion tends to stay in motion in the direction it was going. So, I swerve too far right, then when I give a correction, I swerve too far left, even without pedal input. In some ways I need less force, in others more and, of course, I need more practice.

What does all that mean on a Cruzbike? When I get on and ride, I try to correct in a "normal" manner like I would on an upright and the steering "overreacts" and snaps around more, hence, more wobblies and oversteering corrections (NOT the same as responsiveness). The Silvio steering would dampen that out some. Or, as some of you double Cruzerz have said, the Silvio is much easier and responsive to ride.
 

Mark B

Zen MBB Master
I'm not really prepared to argue physics. It would be like going to a gunfight with a stick. :( That being said, I'll try to express what I have observed and believe to be true.

I believe what you are talking about is more leverage and countering the effects of pedal steer. Speaking in terms of bike handling alone, leaving the swinging bottom bracket out of the equation entirely..... Ideally, what you want is to draw a straight line from where you control the steering and parrralel to the steering head angle, the closer you are to lining up with the front axle, the closer you are to neutral steering. Along those lines, the increased height of the riser still keeps the steering in line, right where you want it, as close to neutral as you can get it.

Now, back to countering pedal steer, which is a matter of leverage. The more you ride, the less upper body countersteer you will find you need. The more you ride, the more you will find that cornering isn't so much forcing the handlebar to do anything, but more of a lean and a slight movement of the hips. So... What I think you are experiencing is; without realizing it, throwing too much hip into the turn by forcing the handlebar. Your feet will keep the bottom bracket in line, remember that. Your knees don't bend in that direction, so you need to think about your hips and I bet you'll see that snapping thing get under control pronto.

Mark
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
Aside from slight differences in steering geometry and riding experiences, the following appears true:

While the grips are roughly inline with the steering axis, the effective leverage is measured as the distance between them (or the distance to the steering axis) and as long as your arms are working roughly tangentially with the rotation of the grips.

The Silvio with road bars gives you 46 cm, with origin 8s or WTBs about 58, the Sofrider 57, the Freerider, about 74 (I think).
 

Mark B

Zen MBB Master
johntolhurst wrote: Aside from slight differences in steering geometry and riding experiences, the following appears true:

While the grips are roughly inline with the steering axis, the effective leverage is measured as the distance between them (or the distance to the steering axis) and as long as your arms are working roughly tangentially with the rotation of the grips.

The Silvio with road bars gives you 46 cm, with origin 8s or WTBs about 58, the Sofrider 57, the Freerider, about 74 (I think).

Right and I agree, but the leverage factor only applies as you are learning. After the learning curve flattens (you like that, don't you , John?) the steering input lessens considerably. I'm going to base this on my experience with the conversion bike with full width mountain bike riser bars VS. the Origin 8 bars on my Silvio. The bar ends on my conversion measure about 23" while the bars on my Silvio, even on the outside of the hoods, measure 19.5". That extra three inches is entirely different and outside what I feel to be my aero realm. Not only that, it goes way beyond the usefulness I feel I need to counteract pedal steer while sprinting or climbing. In fact, for me (and I have very broad shoulders), it enters the realm of uncomfortable. So, I feel that getting outside the reach of something like the Origin 8 bar, you are wasting not only the aero advantage you gain by riding a recumbent, but you are asking for oversteer possibilities trying to counter the effects of pedal steer.

Mark
 

Kamatu

Well-Known Member
Don't worry too much, with me, talking physics is like a rusty gun with dubious ammo. I know exactly what I'm trying to say and know I'm saying it wrong. The solution is more saddle time and I'm working on that, even if it is just a quick half mile in the evening. Normal pedal steer isn't an issue (rather, it is an issue almost resolved, I need more spinning practice), it is the way the front end moves when you turn. Again, a saddle time issue, I have the wrong reflexes and am learning new ones as far as actually riding it. I'm just thinking that all else being equal, the Sofrider/Kit will feel "heavier" on turns than the Silvio from the way the steering is setup, there is more perceived (felt) torque in steering.

Hmmm. Forget it, I just tried three times and still cannot say what I want to say. I'm going to have to dig up that textbook if I can find it.

I'm going to check the hip thing, that is something I hadn't considered, although I'm cornering and pedaling through them now without the snap I had the first few times from oversteering. I think I'm already learning the reflexes for it since the first few times the change in seating from an upright to a recumbent put me way lower than I'm used to being so I felt I was falling.

Mark B wrote:
johntolhurst wrote: Aside from slight differences in steering geometry and riding experiences, the following appears true:

While the grips are roughly inline with the steering axis, the effective leverage is measured as the distance between them (or the distance to the steering axis) and as long as your arms are working roughly tangentially with the rotation of the grips.

The Silvio with road bars gives you 46 cm, with origin 8s or WTBs about 58, the Sofrider 57, the Freerider, about 74 (I think).

Right and I agree, but the leverage factor only applies as you are learning. After the learning curve flattens (you like that, don't you , John?) the steering input lessens considerably. I'm going to base this on my experience with the conversion bike with full width mountain bike riser bars VS. the Origin 8 bars on my Silvio. The bar ends on my conversion measure about 23" while the bars on my Silvio, even on the outside of the hoods, measure 19.5". That extra three inches is entirely different and outside what I feel to be my aero realm. Not only that, it goes way beyond the usefulness I feel I need to counteract pedal steer while sprinting or climbing. In fact, for me (and I have very broad shoulders), it enters the realm of uncomfortable. So, I feel that getting outside the reach of something like the Origin 8 bar, you are wasting not only the aero advantage you gain by riding a recumbent, but you are asking for oversteer possibilities trying to counter the effects of pedal steer.

Mark
 

xkred27

Member
Mark B wrote:
Armadillos really are heavy and they roll pretty tough. At least, they used to. I quit running them when I discovered Gatorskins.
Mark

How tough would you say the Gatorskins are? My daily ride takes me two miles up and back one of the most accidental [?] stretches of highway in the state. I've never seen so much broken glass. Also, if you go out to Specialized's site, they have a plain vanilla Armadillo, whose 700x28 weighs (yikes!) 460g, but also an "Armadillo Elite" that comes in at 340g. Quite a diff. The 700x28 Gatorskin comes in at 320g.

I'll spend some time this evening looking for a good 'Dilla vs. Gator' throwdown thread.

Vanilla Armadillo [VanillaDilla?]:http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=35658
Elite Armadillo:http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=35656
 

Mark B

Zen MBB Master
xkred27 wrote: How tough would you say the Gatorskins are? My daily ride takes me two miles up and back one of the most accidental [?] stretches of highway in the state. I've never seen so much broken glass.
I'm not going to lie, I've gotten flats on gators. Everytime I do, whatever I pick out of the tire I realize that would have flatted anything. The last flat I got was a shard of glass that obviously the front tire had kicked up just right and the rear tire picked up. In an ordinary tire, I would say that a boot would have been called for to cover the cut in the casing, but the shard had just poked through enough to get the tube. I had probably been running with that shard in the tire for a few miles.

They're darned good tires, I'll say that.

Mark
 

Kamatu

Well-Known Member
Yep Mark, you were right. I am shifting my hips when I get a swerve which then turns into a wobble. Quick spin on the upright and it is the same thing, but there it works. I've simply trained myself out of it for cornering and starting, but the unexpected brings it back. Well, the good news is that I'm going to have to extend my daily quickie run, I came back in and my wife asked why I didn't go for a ride.... :p
 

xkred27

Member
xkred27 wrote:
Mark B wrote:
Armadillos really are heavy and they roll pretty tough. At least, they used to. I quit running them when I discovered Gatorskins.
Mark

How tough would you say the Gatorskins are? My daily ride takes me two miles up and back one of the most accidental [?] stretches of highway in the state. I've never seen so much broken glass. Also, if you go out to Specialized's site, they have a plain vanilla Armadillo, whose 700x28 weighs (yikes!) 460g, but also an "Armadillo Elite" that comes in at 340g. Quite a diff. The 700x28 Gatorskin comes in at 320g.

I'll spend some time this evening looking for a good 'Dilla vs. Gator' throwdown thread.

Vanilla Armadillo [VanillaDilla?]:http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=35658
Elite Armadillo:http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=35656

FWIW, I queried Specialized customer service about the diff between the (all-condition) VanillaDilla and the (all-condition) Elite Armadillo. Him say:

Quote: Peter,

The Armadillo Elite will of course be lighter and will have a much better ride quality to them but I have noticed that the standard armadillo actually have better flat protection and that is because in the Elite model they thinned out the Kevlar lining a small amount and added aramid bead to make it more of a race ready flat protection tire. If you are looking for the best all round flat protection I say stick with the ones you have but if you want a nicer ride and a lighter tire check out the Elites.

-Zane


Specialized Customer Service/Online Store
1137 South 3800 West
Salt Lake City UT 84104
877-808-8154

The Elite, then, sounds really comparable to the Gatorskin. Now to decide....

Also, really enjoying the discussion of steering issues. Thanks.
 

Mark B

Zen MBB Master
xkred27 wrote: Also, really enjoying the discussion of steering issues. Thanks.

I've been enjoying it, too. I think being able to ride the bike and being able to ride it well are two different issues. Understanding how the body affects steering is paramount to making the bicycle do what you want. The hip thing was HUGE to me. When I first got on my bike I could not figure out why the rear end felt so loose and rubbery. It was then I figured out it was all about the hips. I was trying to use body english to counter the steering and was using too much. Subtle lateral hip movements cause big changes in directions because in reality, what you are doing is leveraging the aheadset. Fun stuff and it's all good when you get a handle on it.

Mark
 
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