Has anyone done a speed comparison between the S40 and V20?

[Bentsoup]

I'm just curious if Cruzbike has any data that compares the two, strictly based on flat surface speed. I know everyone will just say that the V20 is faster, but by how much?

The obvious differences between the two bikes are the seat angle. What else am I missing?

 

[Henri]

I had asked them directly some time ago. (So the answers are abouz the previous V20, not thr current V20c , but difference should be minimal. It is also not about the nwe adjustable seat, that would change comfort and maybe even climbing ability a bit.) I got two answers to my email. (Had lots of questions.)
Maria said "For speed, the V20 is hands down the faster bike. My husband and I ride ours frequently. It is an extreme seat angle however, and a lot of people prefer the S40, which is still a pretty fast bike and more like a regular road bike in terms of speed (though much, much more comfortable!) I'd guess the speed difference between the two of them is about 3-4 kph."
Robert said "The V20 is going to be the fastest bike for sure if a course is mostly flat. The S40 is a great bike for the long sustained climbs."

The difference always depends. Some people may produce relevantly more power in the position in the S40, wich mitigates some of the aerodynamic drawback and gets really important, if you ride more slowly (steep or heavy or just not very well trained). The faster you are, thr more difference aerodynamics will make. And aerodynamics is bot only seat angle. In a very fast setup with deep rims, tight fitting clothes and such, the steeper seat angle will be more important than on a less extreme build. Also aeronynamically helpfull placement of tailboxes and recumpent luggage bags should have potential to reduce the aerodynamic difference.

 

[Bentsoup]

Thanks! 4kph is 2.5mph so I'd say that's a significant speed difference, all things being equal. I previously owned an S30 and I found it was pretty fast too. With recent neck issues, I think the S40 seat angle would be great, but I worry about the speeds.

I guess, like you said, an S40 with aero upgrades could mitigate the upright seat position some.

 

[chicorider]

Purely anecdotal, non-scientific evidence here, but...

My S30 has always been on par with my V20, both on flats and in the hills. Both bikes have similar builds. The V20 always feels faster because my head is that much closer to the ground, but then Strava shows me that the S30 is just about as quick--maybe 0.5mph slower.

My new V20c is about 1mph faster than my old V20. I chalk that up to a slightly more aero set of wheels and the slightly longer chain stay putting my feet up a little higher. So the S30 is now probably officially slower.

The S40, which I have sold, was a great commuter and town bike, and a good choice for social road rides. Compared to diamond framed bikes, the S40 is indeed a fast road bike, and even provides some draft in a paceline. It can hold its own on spirited group rides. But in a head-to-head speed comparison with the V20, the S40 was consistently around 4mph slower, and headwinds were a little more onerous on the S40 (but still quite a bit better than what DF riders suffer).

Two added quirks for me: First, I get zero recumbutt on the V20, a tiny bit of it, sometimes, on the S30, but it always goes away after 15 minutes, and progressively worsening recumbutt on the S40, making me eager for rides to end. This was a deal-breaker for me, and a main reason to sell the bike. However, everybody's physiology is different, and there are plenty of people who ride the S40 with no recumbutt at all, and there are S40 riders who have created seat modifications to reverse the recumbutt they do suffer. Second, I get the least amount of wheel-slip with the V20, the most with the S40, and a middle amount with the S30. Now, I only weigh 130 pounds, and that almost certainly plays into it, but it is interesting that wheel-slip, whether it's taking off from a green light, or climbing on steeper, chattery road surfaces, is noticeably less the further reclined I am. The V20 does have a longer wheelbase... Or the steeper seat angles of the S30 and S40 give me more to push against, so I am putting more power to the pedals, producing more wheel-slip. I don't really know. If that last part were true, then my results should show that I climb slowest on the V, but that hasn't been my experience. My climbing speeds have been basically the same across all three models, limited mainly by my aerobic capacity. Sure, the steeper seat angle of the S models might give me more to push against for short bursts of power, but for me, sustained climbing is much more about getting into an aerobic groove that I can maintain, and seat angle doesn't seem to have much impact on that when it comes to average climbing speeds.

Having said all that, the main thing is comfort. Sure, the V20 is the faster bike, but if it aggravates a neck issue while the S40 does not, then the V's added speed comes at a cost that one might grow weary of paying ride after ride (my seizing lower back, after 27 years on a DF bike, is what put me on the V20 seven years ago. In hindsight, I'm glad it happened). The fastest, sexiest bike that also causes pain, will soon become a bike that doesn't leave the garage very often.

 

[Robert Holler]

I can say with absolute certainty that the same rider on both these bikes - the V20 will casually pull away from the S40 with very little effort on flat roads.

When two riders are together - one on an S40 and the other on a V20 - and of roughly equal ability, the V20 rider will often be doing the "pedal pedal coast" routine while the S40 rider will be pedaling all the time.

This is not to say the S40 is slow - it is not. It is to say that the V20 IS that much faster.

 

[Always-Learnin]

Two added quirks for me: First, I get zero recumbutt on the V20,...but...progressively worsening recumbutt on the S40, making me eager for rides to end.

This is my experience with the V20 and S40 respectively. However, much of the recumbutt on the S40 has been relieved by extending the sliding front seat section fully forward which gives me the most reclined position I can get on it. I do enjoy riding my S40 and did so in the annual BikeMS150 from Houston to La Grange to College Station this year, but due to the recumbutt issue, had to drop out after the first day. This was before I extended the seat as previously mentioned. I wish I had thought to do that before dropping out. DOH!

 

[Frito Bandito]

Alex from FastFitnessTips had a video on Youtube comparing power and speed on ascents that I can no longer find. The basics of the video I came away with were that the aerodynamics of being on the drops trumped the higher power until the speed dropped to about 10kph. Any speed under that riders on the hood's increased power was faster than when the same rider was on the drops. At what speed the S40, S30 or V20 would start to lose the aero advantage on climbing compared with a DF bike is difficult for me to even ballpark, but I'd guess at about 6-8kph. The difference between the 3 CBs in climbing I feel would be a lot smaller.

In my search for the aforementioned video I came across this comparison between road bikes and TT bikes from FastFitnessTips and it gave a lot of relatable info that applies to the the 3 CBs even though it doesn't actually answer the question directly.

As we all here know, anyone wanting to go faster has to look far beyond just buying a specific model. Yes, getting the torso progressively lower is gonna work, but even an S40 with good wheels, driveline lube, tires, clothes, helmet, elbows tucked, bars, shifters, hydration, hand position, tailbox and more is still going to be a very heavy hitter. Kind of like a BMW M5 in a herd of super cars.

Okay, time to drop the pompoms and go for a ride.

 

[LarryOz]

Here is some of the testing I did 8 years ago when I got my first Cruzbike Silvio 2.0 and then my Vendetta 2.0. I tested both of them around a .3 mile velodrome. I used the exact same components on both bikes and did the testing only 3 days apart and the conditions were similar. The Silvio 2.0 is more like the S30 as I think the seat angle was 28 degrees and the Vendetta 2.0 was the earlier "big boon" Vendetta the predecessor of the V20 (so probably a little slower the the current V20). The S40 has a higher seat angle than the SIlvio 2.0 so it will not be as aero.
All of the components were just bare stock: no fast wheels, tires, handlebars, race cases, mouse pack, etc.
note: With 80mm CF rims, tubeless tires, narrow handlebars, race case, enclosed bottom area, better helmet, arm covers, etc - I have been able to speed up my Vendetta by at good 2.5 mph

How I tested:
I did 5 minute efforts around the track at different power levels.
I set up a lap screen on my Garmin to monitor my avg lap power in real time.
My testing sets were like this: 5 mins at 100watts, then increase 25 watts for another 5 min, and continue that progression until I hit 300 watts, then one final 5 min as hard as I could go.
I would ramp up to the wattage for each set at the same start/stop location of the track and and press the lap button on my Garmin. I would do my best to maintain the constant and even wattage for each 5 minute set - modulating my power to try and hit the necessary avg power for that set. I was more successful on the Silvio at hitter the power than I was on the Vendetta, especially at the higher power levels

Even at 100 watts the Vendetta 2.0 was 3mph faster than the Silvio 2.0 - this appeared to be pretty consistent all the way up to 250 watts although my Vendetta power was always lower and the speed was still around the 3 mph difference.
The most incredible results to me were than I was easily able to get up to 300 watts after nearly 50 minutes of riding and steadily increasing the power. And then I was able to hit 360 watts as the max 5 min. This was on the Silvio But on the Vendetta I was not even able to hit the 275 mark and that was my max - and my final try (set #10) - I only hit 265 was. This had me conclude that it is possible to make more power with a higher seat angle. Although some of it may be adaptation. I had been riding the Silvio for over 3 months and the Vendetta was new. However I have never been able to reach these power levels on the Vendetta even after many years of training and racing.
Some of the results:
100 watts
Silvio 14.7, Vendetta 17.8 mph
150 watts
Silvio 18.3, Vendetta 21.5 mpg
200 watts
Silvio 19.6, Vendetta 23.2 mph
250 watt set
Silvio 22.8, Vendetta 24.9 mph (note Vendetta power was only 233 w)
300 watt set
Silvio 23.6, Vendetta 25.9 mph (note Vendetta power was only 265 w)
..
25.4 mph on the Silvo took me 364 watts, 25.6 mph on the Vendetta only took 258 watts - nearly 90 watts difference!
Now I can do 25 mph on my V20 with about 185 watts with all my aero improvements and tight cockpit setup.

notes:
My weight is also about 140 pounds (63Kg ) which also has to be taken into account when talking about watt output. W/Kg is really a better metric to use when comparing riders on similar bikes and courses.

The weight aspect on flat ground is not as big a deal as if you were climbing either.
But usually heavier person is larger too and cannot be as aero on the same bike.

Here is my testing file: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rF0wEX2WpNRJ42GzFw70Zk5nfN_H28AP0c8nLisuCxM/edit?usp=sharing
..

 

[Bentsoup]

Thanks everyone! Larry, that is some very detailed information. I appreciate it.

I'm thinking that if I jump back into the Cruzbike game, comfort will be king. Though understanding the speed differences is always something I've been curious about. Thanks again!

 

[vosadrian]

Very interesting Larry. I have a V20 and DF bike. I've only been riding the V20 for just over a year and last year I was almost exclusively riding it, but this year I am equal between DF and V20. I am less fit now than the end of last year where I was able to do some rides on the V20 at around 220W average power level for around an hour. At the moment I might be able to do 180W.... but on the DF I could easily do 230W now, and in the past I could do up to 270W (this is average... not NP).

I always put it down to developing bent legs, but I plateau'd and kind of reached my max power on the V20 and was not really getting any more and I was still way down from my DF power. You seem to have simiar experience but with the more upright seat angle... It seems it is less about bent legs for me, and probably just the reclined angle and I probably will never be able to match my DF power at the same fitness level.

Of course the V20 is still quicker at the lower power level than the DF for most of my riding. I tend to do my flatter rides on the V20 and the hilly rides on the DF. I've not tried the hilly loop on the V20, but I am sure I would be slower. In fact I think I might not be able to get around the loop with walking up some hills, as it has several sections at around 20% incline for several hundred metres (that you enter from 5-10% so no momentum), and I'm not confident I could do that at all on the V20.