High speed steering help...

[sethgodin]

Hi gang. New to the forum, new to my brand-new Silvio.

I got pretty good at the steering pretty quickly, and I'm just delighted by how efficient this thing is. I actually pass people on the uphills, which has never ever happened on my other 'bent.

Here's my problem: on the downhills, as I approached 20 mph, I came whisper close to a massive wipeout. Three times I felt the steering wobble and then get even wobblier--the opposite of every other bike I've ever been on, where speed = stability. I finished my ride using brakes on all the downhills, which brought tears to my eyes...

My question: is this just a matter of practice? Is there something fundamental in the design that does this? Suggestions are welcome.

Thanks. Seth

 

[Eric Winn]

Were you pedaling?

Were you pedaling?

 

[3WHELZ]

Steering Wobble

I have not hear of this problem, although I have Silvio 1.0. I routinely reach speeds exceeding 30 mph and have not encountered this issue. My guess it that your headset may not be tightened properly. I would defer to Doug, since has considerable experience with all Cruzbike models.

 

[Vargas]

Unfortunately I don't have a Silvio

Unfortunately I don't have a Silvio. I have a lovely Sofrider.
I *never* ?take my legs off the pedals while riding as I feel this makes the bike wobble and harder to control. With the feet on the pedals I never had any wobble and the bike feels completely under control at any speed.
I suggest you forget about lowering your center of gravity, keep your feet on the pedals and check again what happens going downhill.

 

[sethgodin]

Was I pedaling?

It happened both ways. Obviously, going downhill there's not a lot of resistance, so it was more motion than it was strength. I found throughout the ride that once I got into the left-right-left rhythm, it was a lot easier to be stable than it was in a straight up coast.

I did the second half of the ride with my legs off the pedals on the downhills, lowering my center of gravity. But basically, I didn't like the cold knife edge of fear I was feeling as the bike got faster.

As for the headset, happy to check it if you give me a hint how, but this didn't feel like a bike malfunction, it felt like the physics of oscillation. For what it's worth.

PS I have a Silvio 1.5

 

[Eric Winn]

Usually during the first bit

Usually during the first bit of riding, taking your feet off the pedal if you start losing it quickly returns control.

I think this is because the FWD MBB requires very little input for steering and feet and arms both are providing more steering input than is needed. As you practice more and more this lessens until it goes away.

Have you seen Kim's videos? He is very good at explaining good technique.

http://cruzbiking.com.au/firstride

-Eric

 

[3WHELZ]

I would agree Eric that based

I would agree Eric that based on your further description that the issue may be associated with pedal steering. I experienced the identical problem when I first converted over to recumbent some years ago. It took me some time to find the rhythm, and that was on a trike (Windcheetah).

One easy way to check your headset is the apply your front brake and see if the head moves back and forth when you apply pressure in either direction.

Hope this helps.

 

[sethgodin]

Thanks Eric: psychosomatics...

The videos didn't teach me much, but the captions did.

My sense is that as I got faster, I got more nervous, and tried harder, clenched up, and oversteered. The result of the oversteer is of course to create the wobble, which makes me even more nervous...

Practice, practice.

See you at Carnegie Hall. Thank you!

 

[Eric Winn]

John Tolhurst posted this gem

John Tolhurst posted this gem over on BROL back around Sep of last year:

We are trying to do a few things to smooth the learning curve.
1) understand that it will feel weird at first
2) breakdown the learning into little packets
3) let the muscles feel the feedback by keeping them relaxed - open palms helps this
4) don't confuse yourself by riding a regular bike
5) look at where you are going
6) sing something

and

Allow time for it to come together.

Hubris, confidence, machismo, self aggrandisement about being expert about bikes, these are your enemies. So do your learning in private. Be humble, accept you don't know. Empty yourself, grasshopper.

-Eric

 

[Vargas]

Grasshopper...
Long time

Grasshopper...
Long time didn't hear that

 

[Charles.Plager]

I think Eric's giving you

I think Eric's giving you good advice. There can be weird feedback having both your hands and your feet on the pedals at the same time. You need to not be too tight when descending (as you're discovering). If you aren't comfortable going fast yet, don't do it. It will come, but don't push it. (I've hit about 45 mph on my Sofrider).

When you are pedaling, you need to minimize pedal steer in these situations. One thing i advice is working towards learning to ride with no hands (which isn't useful in itself, but is useful as far as learning minimizing pedal steer). On level or slight uphills where it is NOT crowded, start by taking one hand off, then the other. If you don't want to ride with no hands, just work on having a finger or two on the steering. PLEASE don't actually try this when decending quickly...

cheers,
Charles

 

[Eric Winn]

Of course the other thing you

Of course the other thing you can do is learn to ride a Cruzbike on rollers

but be prepared to pop off the *#$*! things a bazillion times before you can manage to ride for very long. If patience and persistence isn't your thing, this can be hard to master.

I spent the winter riding a Cruzbike Quest on rollers because I didn't have anything else at the time. I worked up to being able to do 2 hour sessions without much trouble and even did a 4 hour session. I was trying to train for Bike Sebring.

I can't guarantee this will solve your problem but I can tell you I usually pedal downhill, uphill, and on the flats and seldom coast. In fact, I'm usually pedaling to speed up on downhills with nary a wobble in sight. It also seemed to help my slow speed manuevering as I typically ride this one 180 degree hairpin turn, while clipped in, at about 2mph without too much trouble.

-Eric

 

[sethgodin]

thanks guys

the reassurance means the world to me.

Onward!

 

[Andrew 1973]

One more bit of reassurance

Hi Seth. The first Monday after I received my Silvio - which I got on a Saturday, I was bound and determined to ride to work. My 13.5 mile commute was a white-knuckle experience as I was tensing-up as each car would pass me. By the next day, I felt more relaxed and less than two-months later, I feel confident enough to maneuver the Silvio in traffic and sprint to beat traffic lights before they change from green to amber.

Downhills were a bit harrowing for me too as I felt I was spinning out of control while spinning out. My high 52 x 13 gear isn't quite high enough for me on most descents, and I've learned that after about 32 mph, it's time for me to relax and coast. I find that on the next uphill, when I get to the mid-20's, I can begin pedaling again to keep my momentum going. In time I will work with higher gears and continuing my spin. While I am not confident with riding hands-free, I am mindful to keep the open palms and a light touch on the bars.

These Cruzbikes...aren't they a blast?

 

[mickjordan]

The opposing view

At the risk of offending the Zen CZ masters...

Yes, there is something fundamental about the design causes the effect you experienced. The front end is heavy and any input that might cause the wheel to change direction, e.g., like spinning your feet backwards, will cause wobble. It can be quite terrifying in my experience.

The good news is that many people seem to be able to overcome this aspect of the design, essentially by becoming able to steer with the feet and legs. My assumption is that at some stage in the process, this happens subconsciously, and the rider is not even aware that the legs are making micro-corrections to keep everything stable. How long it takes to get to that point varies with the individual. Some people evidently master it quite quickly, others, like me, give up before the magic moment occurs. I stuck with it long enough to get comfortable in "normal" riding conditions, but not on the steep and twisty.

I'm fearful enough already on descents and we have many tricky ones in the SF Bay Area, and I'm too old to spend a couple of years mastering the bike. By comparison, I felt completely stable on my first descent on both a Bacchetta Aero and a Lighting P38 so, for me the perceived benefit of better climbing simply didn't match up, as what goes up must come down!

Hope you are one of the fast learners.

 

[billyk]

Mick is right

I agree with Mick about the heaviness of the front end being the root of the problem. Wobble is or can be caused by overcorrecting, and with a heavy front end, very small angle changes mean a large mass off-center of the rolling direction. This possibly could be reduced by increasing the trail or other subtle adjustments to the geometry, but this is a complex subject which I'm reluctant to speculate about. And though I ride for miles on end without hands, and feel I've mastered the bike in most situations, still I'm scared of being brought down by high-speed wobble.

BK

 

[marshall2389]

The first time I rode my

The first time I rode my Quest I would wobble out of control any time I got above about 20mph. I learned to pedal differently so as to avoid this. Now the only time I feel a similar sensation is when I am descending to quickly to keep up and I spin out. Sometimes, when I am in too low of a gear and attempt to start pedaling again I spin out and for a brief moment I feel the wobble. Other than that everything feels stable.