One-piece speed and cadence sensor unit on Vendetta?

[Eric Winn]

What are current Vendetta owners using for speed and cadence sensors? Especially Bluetooth Smart sensors?

In looking at some of the forum and other photos it appears that a more-or-less one piece sensor like the Wahoo Fitness Wahoo Blue SC Speed and Cadence sensor won't work because the main sensor body is designed to sit on a section of the chainstay that is swept by BOTH the pedal magnet and the spoke magnet as I show in the image below which I borrowed from fthills Rohloff build for Vendetta post:

I was getting ready to get the Wahoo Blue SC Speed and Cadence Sensor for my current bike with the thought of transferring it to my Vendetta when it arrives but decided I should look through the forum pictures and others to see if it was possible and based on fthills chainstay length it is not.

Does the small or medium Vendetta size option result in a shorter chainstay such that a single piece sensor would work?

If not, is anybody currently using Bluetooth smart sensors? I want to use this type of sensor to connect them to my iPhone apps.

Here is a review of the Wahoo Blue SC by dcrainmaker

-Eric

 

[JAE1969]

Being 6'2" tall, I have the

Being 6'2" tall, I have the large frame Vendetta . I ran into the same issue with the cadence sensor and a one piece device does not work. I use a Cycle Ops but I do not use the cadence or heart rate feature. I really only use it to verify my data in case my iPhone goes haywire. But I don't have a device for my iPhone either for cadence.

I have not been real up-to-speed on the new technology in these devices for some time, so if anyone finds a good one please pass along. I am not much of a heart rate guy and rid emore by feel: always have. But I do want to find a device that can track cadence as I do follow that.

 

[TimOz]

Eric 5
Have you tried the

Eric 5
Have you tried the Garmin wireless sensor?
I have one on my Silvio and it has an adjustable arm taht will allow some distane between the other sensors.

The other tip is that toy don't actually need the sensor in the area swept by the spokes and crank. You just need a magnet doing past the sensor at the same cadence. By that I mean that it may be pussible to attach a short bracket on the crank arm that extends a magnet into the sweep area. You don't want it easily damaged when pedalling but might be possible.

 

[Eric Winn]

I just swapped some emails

I just swapped some emails with Wahoo support. They tell me the "reach" of their sensor is 2 inches. I've ordered a small frame Vendetta version. It may be the chainstay, wheel spoke, crank overlap requirement would be within this 2 inch reach.

The Wahoo Blue SC is a wireless Bluetooth smart/low power unit that I can connect to cyclemeter and other apps on an iPhone 4s or iPhone 5.

If I understand Wahoo support's email and their install video, the cadence sensor magnet would sweep past the region of the "W" in Wahoo on the sensor body logo and the spoke magnet would sweep past the end of the sensor arm. This "reach" is 2 inches.

John T. can you advise if this will work for both speed and cadence on a small framed v3 Vendetta? Or earlier small framed v2 Vendettas?

-Eric

 

[fthills]

Hi Eric ,based on the fotos

Hi Eric ,based on the fotos and measurements there is not enough overlap between the pedal crank and the frontwheel to pick up the cadence. This is on a medium frame. John should be able to confirm the length of the chainstay between the different models .

 

[fthills]

forgot to mention: 170mm

forgot to mention: 170mm cranks on the medium frame. If you need fotos with a ruler next to the cranks and frame let me know.

 

[John Tolhurst]

Chainstay lengths

The chainstay on the small size V is 410, BB to axle, so no concerns whatsoever - plenty of crank wheel overlap.

Say wheel is radius 340mm
say crank circle radius is 175mm

Small chainstay is 410, overlap will be, 340+175-410=105mm

Medium chainstay is 496, possibly some concerns, as the overlap will be, 340+175-496=19. and all of that 19 is tire & rim.

The large chainstay is 584, so the overlap is 340+175-584= -69mm.

When you know the radius of the inner surface of your rim, and the effective radius of your crank where you can actually attach, enter those figures in the above sums to predict overlap.

 

[WhiteSilvio]

Speed Cadence Sensor for Garmin 500 and more

HI.
I posed the very same question on this forum some time back with regards to my Silvio with a chainstay extension added.

I didn't get any responses here, but I posted on the Garmin (Edge 500) forum and someone came up with the

Wahoo Fitness speed/cadence sensor (not the same as the one talked of earlier in this thread).

This sensor (http://www.wahoofitness.com/Products/Wahoo-Fitness-Wahoo-Cycling-SpeedCadence-Sensor.asp) has a cable between the two sensors that allows it to be used in a situation similar to the Vendetta and the Silvio (with chain-stay extension).

It has the added advantage that the cable can be extended if it is too short. If you have any skills with soldering wires together this should not be a problem.

I checked with Wahoo and asked them about the cable extending feature, just to be 100% sure that I hadn't misunderstood before buying a unit, and they sent the following instructions.

"Hello John,

Here are the instructions that you asked for. Read over them and see if this will help in your situation.
Adding a length of wire to our S/C sensor is actually pretty simple.
This is what we recommend:

What you will need:
small tip, low power soldering iron and resin-core solder
some length of two conductor data cable (high flexibility like a mouse
cable - more than 2 conductor is OK)
heat shrink tube - 2pcs large diameter X 2" long
heat shrink tube - 4pcs small diameter X 3/4" long
wire cutters/strippers

Procedure:
1. Verify that the S/C sensor functions properly before you begin.
2. Remove the sensor battery
3. Cut the connection cable in a convenient location
4. Strip back less than 1/4" of the four S/C cable wires and two wires
on each end of the cable splice section
5. Apply both the large and small diameter heat shrink tubes before soldering
6. Solder all four connections
7. Shrink the four small diameter heat shrink tubes over the four
solder joints (butane lighter from a distance)
8. Shrink the two large diameter heat shrink tubes over the two joint areas
9. Replace the sensor battery

I hope this is clear. Let us know how it works out.

Cris
Wahoo Fitness"

I feel more than capable of performing this and have all the gear to do it, but if you don't have the skill, or the gear, maybe a friend would be prepared to help.

On the basis of this I have one of these units heading my way, and fully expect to have speed and cadence again on my bike.
Currently I have settled for speed.

Note:
According to Garmin one cannot pair two of the sensors, shown above in TimOz's post, to the Edge 500. This that is not an option.

Hope this helps. Not 100% sure this helps with Bluetooth connectivity, but if you require it for an iPhone or the like, Wahoo sell a thing that plugs in (to the phone) to allow the bluetooth to work with BT devices such as the Wahoo Blue SC.

Regards,
John.

 

[Eric Winn]

John, I considered that model

John, I considered that model but it uses ANT+ for its low power wireless connectivity.

ANT+ requires a dongle to work with an iPhone 4 and earlier models. Bluetooth Smart first became available in the iPhone 4S and is also on the 5. However, Apple changed the data connector on the 5 to a smaller form factor so the existing Wahoo Key (their name for their ANT+ dongle) won't work directly on the iPhone 5. Apple also created an adapter, at $30 each!, that will allow the older style connector to be used with the 5 so I suppose I could have purchased an adapter, and a Wahoo key but then I would be double dongled which just didn't seem right - on so many levels.

ANT+ is actually owned by Garmin and is a closed technology. I expect Bluetooth Smart will supplant ANT+ in the next few years as I believe there will be many more devices with Bluetooth Smart built in which won't require a dongle.

Wahoo actually uses some marketing language to mark the model you ordered as recumbent compatible. I suspect this is mostly due to the ability to spread the sensor distance by lengthening the wiring as you describe to accommodate the typical distance between a recumbent crank arm and nearest available wheel.

If you read the dcrainmaker review in my original link he discusses ANT+ a bit. He also talks about the Wahoo KICKR trainer in another review which is both ANT+ compatible and Bluetooth Smart. In some of his other reviews, I think it was in one of the heart monitor ones, he talks more about ANT+ vs Bluetooth Smart. I vaguely recall some sort of device that was both ANT+ compatible and Bluetooth Smart that could used as an ANT+ hub, if you will, connecting to all of your existing ANT+ device inventory but then connecting from there to your iPhone or other Bluetooth Smart enabled smart phone or other device.

In a similar sense, I'm very interested in the forthcoming Wahoo RFLKT display which functions like a remote display for the apps on my iPhone connected to Bluetooth Smart sensors on my bike so that I can secure my phone out of harms way and view the desirable data on the RFLKT display which is also smaller and lighter and more weather resistant than my iPhone.

-Eric

 

[Eric Winn]

The Wahoo Blue SC works fine

The Wahoo Blue SC works fine on the medium Vendetta with 170mm cranks. The only issue I have is with the bladed chainstays as the sensor's mounting surface was really made for a round or perhaps oval chainstay.

It is easy to bump the pickup points out of proper sensing alignment unless you build out a better mounting surface around the bladed part of the chainstay where the device is mounted.

I haven't bothered yet as I just try to be careful and just reposition it if I bump it. This can be annoying though if you bump it frequently as for me it used to mean I lost my cadence data or my speed showed as something like 7 or 9 mph or other screwy number or nothing when I was doing 20+mph.

I've since installed and use a Stages power meter for the left crank and no longer use the cadence sensor in my Wahoo Blue SC, only the speed sensor. I pull my cadence data from the Stages pm.

I also bought and use a Wahoo RFLKT which I've been really happy with and I have one of the new RFLKT+ models coming to me from backing their recent Kickstarter project.

The RFLKT+ adds temperature and a barometric altimeter as well as functioning as an ANT+ bridge to a newer iPhone via smart bluetooth. This means that if you have several ANT+ devices and a newer iPhone (4S and up with smart bluetooth) you will be able to use the RFLKT+ with your bluetooth sensors AND your ANT+ sensors and feed their data to your iPhone along with using the GPS in the iPhone with your iPhone app of choice and all of the data will be displayed on your RFLKT+ display with your iPhone safely stowed in a jersey pocket, bag, etc.

I use Cyclemeter and can send my data to Ride With GPS (or other online resources) right from my iPhone at the end of my ride.

For that matter, you can also configure Cyclemeter to post to Facebook when you are riding and if any of your friends post a comment while you are riding , Cyclemeter will read their comment to you from your iPhone speaker. Nanda Holz posted a comment on one of my rides asking me if there were any hills and I heard the comment while I was right in the middle of climbing some hills...

I probably looked funny talking to myself saying " Heck yeah there are hills on this ride "...

You can also configure Cyclemeter to email a message at different intervals (time, distance, etc) with your progress to a family member or friend to keep them updated on where you are on your ride. Can your Garmin do that?

-Eric

 

[Bruce B]

Cyclemeter-Email

"?You can also configure Cyclemeter to email a message at different intervals (time, distance, etc) with your progress to a family member or friend to keep them updated on where you are on your ride."

Precisely why I have an iPhone4s and Cyclemeter.

Bruce

 

[Vargas]

Why bother with speed sensor

Why bother with speed sensor when your cell phone has GPS; isn't a cadence sensor enough?

Wow! My wife ?can be updated on where I am on my ride! Hope she doesn't read this...

 

[iow]

eric, not sure if it will be

eric, not sure if it will be of any significance, but your reference photo appears to be a 559 (26") rim.

 

[Charles.Plager]

Why bother with speed sensor

Why bother with speed sensor when your cell phone has GPS; isn't a cadence sensor enough?

If you put your bike on a trainer, you need the speed sensor.

Wow! My wife ?can be updated on where I am on my ride! Hope she doesn't read this...

Ummmm.... Doesn't work in Brazil. Yeah... That's it...

 

[yojamey]

I wonder if the one piece bluetooth unit could be hacked?

I wonder if the one piece Bluetooth unit could be hacked? ...Disassembled and wired added between cadence sensor and wheel rotation sensor similar to the ANT+ hack shown here
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2011/07/ant-bike-speedcadence-sensor-everything.html

I googled [bluetooth cadence] and looked at images and found this new product that has a wire between the sensors too and this unit also calculates power output (without wind speed and without wind resistance)

http://www.velocomputer.com/views/products-sensor4_5


I contacted Wahoo Fitness about taking their all-in-one BlueTooth sensor apart and asked for photos or an exploded view...They reported that the modification has been done by other bent riders and did not know the specifics.

They sent me photos of the connection
http://support.wahoofitness.com/attachments/token/xk8iwhoprpgsjrx/?name=IMG_0550.JPG
http://support.wahoofitness.com/attachments/token/mrc2uplefa4bave/?name=IMG_0547.JPG

http://support.wahoofitness.com/attachments/token/djislhwmwi44tfy/?name=Photo+Sep+26%2C+11+12+39+AM.jpg

http://support.wahoofitness.com/attachments/token/47josm97gpj5mlb/?name=Photo+Sep+26%2C+11+12+13+AM.jpg

http://support.wahoofitness.com/attachments/token/jeqzktixsxxle4l/?name=Photo+Sep+26%2C+11+11+26+AM.jpg


This in from Wahoo Support

Just as a heads up, modifying any of our products does void any warranty. The ANT+ Speed/Cadences sensor was inherently easier to modify due to the wires running form the cadence sensor to the speed sensor. On the other hand, the Blue SC uses two contacts to make the connection between the speed arm and the main body.

Before working on the Blue SC, remove the battery. The picture Jonathan sent was a little unclear but when you open it up you will see two obvious contacts. Just solder a wire onto each of those connections. Then run the wires to the main body. You will see two semi-circle shaped contact pads. Solder one wire to each pad, be sure not to accidentally short the connection between the pads! Next, and most importantly, is to make sure the openings are sealed up! I'd recommend either a hot clue or silicon clue to close up any holes.

To answer your other questions, the iOS App is completely free!

I'm not 100% on this but the screen and GPS are definitely the biggest drain on the battery (the app and bluetooth 4.0 connection do not drain the battery near as fast). We have guys that have gotten 3 hours on a bike ride (with the screen on all the time). One way to help conserve battery are to dim the screen or even shut it off if you aren't worried about knowing the instant data. Another option would be to use the RFLKT Bike Comptuer. It's essentially a remote display for your iPhone that uses Bluetooth 4.0 to drastically extend your battery life. You just shut off the screen on your iPhone, throw it in a saddle bag or jersey pocket, and then mount the RFLKT just like any other bike computer!

Hope that helps, let me know how the Blue SC works out and if you have any other questions!

 

[Eric Winn]

That is one of fthills photos

That is one of fthills photos that I grabbed because it was close to the angle I needed to describe my question.

I'm not sure what size wheel he built his Rohloff hub into but I think it is a 700c with 28mm tires. He did mention in another ride report post that he was running 28mm tires but I don't recall if he confirmed the wheel size.

I'm running 700c with 23mm tires.

-Eric

 

[Rposar]

Garmin GSC 10 Sensor

To answer the original question, the Garmin GSC10 speed/cadence works great with both my Vendetta 2.0 / medium frame / 170 mm cranks and my Silvio 2.0 / no extension / 165 mm cranks. If I put the 100 mm extension on the Silvio 2.0, I think I am going to have to go to separate sensors.

 

[hamishbarker]

I have an old powertap hub

I have an old powertap hub which can measure both speed and cadence at the hub itself, presumably cadence is detected by measuring the frequency of thetorque peaks felt by the hub. Not quite as accurate as a cadence sensor but less extra gear on board.

If using a stages crank based meter, they should provide cadence but a separate speed sensor is needed if GPS is not used.

I bought the power tap hub (an old wired version) cheaply on Ebay. (but then had to build a wheel for it) The little yellow had unit has no GPS so runs for thousands of km on a single coin cell.it records 15 hours of data at 1 second intervals, longer if slower recording intervals are used.

 

[Drew]

Modifying garmin sensor


Back in my Catrike days I modified a Garmin GSC-10 so the cadence pick-up was under the crank and a wire carried the speed sensor to the rear wheel. This would work well on a Cruzbike too and doesn't take much skill.

This blog outlines the process

http://turtleaws3.blogspot.ca/2010/05/modifing-for-gsc-10-cadencespeed-sensor.html

 

[Rposar]

Thanks Drew

That is perfect, Drew. I am wanting to install the 100mm ext on my Silvio. This looks like a great solution.