Paging Tribal Elders and Component Wonks- Caution Long

[c3pilot]

Greetings to the Tribe... Long time lurker, first time poster. It's taken awhile to get here but at long last I'm getting ready to take the plunge. A bit of background...

I've been riding recumbents since 2011 having begun with a Catrike Expedition and adding a Catbike Musashi late the following year. As much as I enjoy the Musashi the past couple of years I've been getting increasingly curious about what other rides I might enjoy and what improvements to the experience they might bring.

After coming across Cruzbike I decided to check them out at Rose City in Portland during one of my frequent West Coast road trips in early 2016 where I first met Robert and Jonathan. At first I tried an S30 Silvio and thought I might be vexed by the MBB design (this being well before I knew anything of the progressive learning steps we now see listed). As I turned the bike in feeling pretty uncertain I had what it took I couldn't help but think I should try the Vendetta, if only because I was already there. Well surprise, surprise! I was off like a shot... well maybe not quite but before I knew it I was making 360 degree turns in the local parking lot and feeling much more "at one" with the bike- I was stunned and just maybe on my way to being smitten. I left thinking the Vendetta might be something to give serious consideration to when I was ready to step up. Some months later I was passing through Portland again and gave the Vendetta another shot though my time that day was brief. It was like the Silvio all over again which I quickly chalked up to the idea that it was something new that I really had to learn and put some time into. Fair enough.

Last year wasn't the sort of year I wanted to have with cycling between work demands, weather and scheduling. To try and address this and not have a total washout I hit the road in September targeting consecutive weekends at Crater Lake and doing some riding in the Bay Area & Redding in between- five healthy rides in all, some on the Expedition but most on the Musashi. Near the end of my trip with only the second Crater Lake ride to go I dropped into Rose City again to try the S40 and see if I'd have any better luck than I did the previous year. It didn't seem to take much and I was riding pretty well on the S40, I was impressed. I liked the visibility and my control seemed much improved over the previous year. Before long though, even with the seat pan moved forward I thought I could feel some recum-butt beginning. All in all though it seemed to me that maybe down the line I could almost see me with one of each if my first Cruzbike experience went well.

So that's where we are now. When the new V20 was announced I had a choice to make... Vendetta or S40?
I'd had decent luck with both relatively quickly so which way to go? With no hint of recum-butt, a limited edition blue, excuse me, Cobalt and now posting in this forum yes I pulled the trigger on a new V20 frame set. Unfortunately until recently, I'd also been forced to ignore it since last September but that time is over.

What I'm hoping for is some input from those of you who have gone before in helping me to spec out my new ride. They say a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Believing I have some clear ideas of what I want but not necessarily how to get there I'm probably not only dangerous but more like a menace- to myself. The biggest trick I'm thinking is knowing which parts will place nicely with others and I have no illusion that I'm a novice.

I'm basing much of my thinking around what I've learned with my Musashi, particularly from my last trip though I realize not all of this will transfer.

Despite the Vendetta being intended to be a fast bike I'm really concerned about low end gearing. I'm a big guy, 6'2" and 250lbs, far from ideal I know and something I'm trying to improve on. My trip featured a lot of steady climbs, some quite steep for me (Hawk Hill in San Francisco peaked at 14.2% which I just barely made). My Musashi has an Ultegra 170mm triple 30/39/52 paired with a SRAM XO 11-36 cassette controlled with GripShifters. I needed every bit of this combination to get up these grades and may have benefitted from an inner ring less than 30. Of course I didn't have the benefits of a Dynamic MBB and pulling on the bars only got me some heel strike and close to dumping the bike.

I know that Doubles (and compacts) seem to rule road riding these days but I'm a bit challenged in my faith that they are a good fit for me. Certainly dropping a bunch of weight will help with the hills but I'm simply not there yet and eager to begin riding soon.

So here’s what I’m thinking…

Go with the same Ultegra triple, Ultegra front derailleur (braze on?) and matching brifters (Ultegra 6703 3x10 STI). For the rear it seems I could use an 11-36 (XT M771) 10 speed cassette combined with Shimano XT M771 (or maybe M772) 9- speed rear derailleur. I realize that last bit seems like a mismatch but reports are they should work together according to other users and it uses the correct cable pull for the brifters. The other thing I know I want are disc brakes. Inquiries I’ve made suggest the 6703 brifters should work with the road specific disc brakes and semi-hydraulics such as the TRP Hy-RD. As for the bottom bracket I don’t have a clue. Wheels are also to be determined and easily swapped later.

I please welcome you to weigh in with your thoughts & suggestions and thank you for reading this far. I want to do this right but know I’m going to need some help to get there, good thing I’m patient.

Cheers, Rob

 

[nobrakes]

Hi Rob,

I've been through a lot of the same things you are currently considering, although I went with a compact double rather than a triple. There's lots of info about what is compatible etc on my build thread, I got a lot of really useful info from the community here during the build and it's worth a read even if you don't go down exactly the same component route.

I originally was going to go with a very wide Shimano cassette but after trying it, it wasn't going to work without a Wolftooth roadlink. I eventually went with Sram wifli 11-32 cassette which is wide enough for all the hills I have to ride (up to 20% gradients).

One gotcha is that if your big ring is 50T or less, a front mech with a central bolt hole will not sit close enough to the ring for optimal shifting. Some people report no problems, others have less luck. I eventually took the force 22 front mech off and put on an older Rival 10 speed front mech which has 2 bolt holes specifically to cope with standard and compact chainring setups. New chainstays are coming with a custom longer braze on mount, but they're not here yet.

You might need to do a little bit of filing on the rear weld to get disc brakes on. Not a big deal but you might find the rotor rubs if you don't do this. It took me a few minutes and a black paint pen to sort this. I went with TRP HY/RD and they have been good. The stock pads are junk, if I was buying them again I would just put on decent pads from the start, because my rear ones wore out within a few hundred miles and gave up the ghost at 45 mph down a steep hill. The front ones were sounding like they were about to go too - brown underpants moment

Other than these, my build went very smoothly and the advice I received from the tribe was stellar.

My build thread is here: http://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/v20-build-mbb-newbie.11946/
I started a thread on compact chain rings here: http://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/the-compact-chainring-front-mech-issues-thread.12284/

Hope you find some useful info in there.

 

[Abbott Smith]

Rob,

I’m a big rider too. 6’2.5” 265-270 lbs. i bought my V20 in 2015.

I went with a Shimano compact double that can be broken into its component cogs. I then pulled the 15t and 17t cogs and replaced them with a 16t and 42t Wolf cog setup. I rode this bike around Lake Tahoe, Seattle and now the.hills surrounding Cincinnati. The gearing on my V20 Sigrditha has been perfect.

The one other recommendation that I would make is invest in disc brakes. At our weight the V20 flat flies on downhills and rollers. The extra stopping power of disc brakes will help.

Welcome to the tribe.

Abbott

 

[DavidCH]

gave up the ghost at 45 mph

Pleased to say you can tell the tale

 

[MrSteve]

Hi Rob,

You never mentioned recum-butt in your Musashi story, but (heh) mention it in your S40 test ride.
Since the Vendetta is more like your Musashi in that your body weight is more distributed and less concentrated,
you may be more comfortable on a Vendetta.
The V seat pan is small for big people, so you might want a test ride with the Vendetta to be sure.
I'm sure you know about the Ventisit pads and Thor seats and the other optional seat choices available!
Good luck.

 

[jond]

There are a myriad of build stories here on the forum to help sort you out.

a triple is really not going to happen I reckon on your vendetta. No need. Just read no brakes build diary and ratz too for a great start.

Best wishes you’ll love your bike.

 

[benphyr]

I've never been on a V20, but if you made it up a hill on the Catrike you should be able to do the same gearing with the V20 because it is significantly lighter allowing you to carry / maintain higher speeds. Not immediately, but once you become proficient it should not be a problem I wouldn't think. You can't push hard without including balance in the equation but the weight savings should make up for that. (My experience is that the pulling with the arms thing is a small factor.)

 

[Charles.Plager]

There are a myriad of build stories here on the forum to help sort you out.

a triple is really not going to happen I reckon on your vendetta. No need. Just read no brakes build diary and ratz too for a great start.

So I've never ridden a Vendetta, but I have ridden up lots of long steep hills on my Cruzbikes at 3 mph. That's harder to do with a double (unless you go with a monster cassette in the back and don't mind large gaps). It was possible to mount a triple on Vendettas and Silvios a few years back, I'm assuming it still is.

 

[jond]

So I've never ridden a Vendetta, but I have ridden up lots of long steep hills on my Cruzbikes at 3 mph. That's harder to do with a double (unless you go with a monster cassette in the back and don't mind large gaps). It was possible to mount a triple on Vendettas and Silvios a few years back, I'm assuming it still is.

Riding at 3 mph on a meant to go fast tt vendetta seems anecdotally universally difficult on flat ground let alone steep gradients. So it’s a compact and mtb rear and get strong on hills .

I have much loved triples on my trikes and love the range for carrying extra weight but note anything mid to high end road is now very hard to get. Gossamer pro and lower.

Now we see 1 x 11/12 systems touted and I feel like you Charles. That they can’t replace a double which pretty well has ostensibly replaced the triple. Too many big steps right. ........

To be fair increased cassette range and no. of cogs also quickened the demise of the venerable road triple . Plus bike economics 101. Lol

Is it possible to fit a triple to a new vendetta? Probably yes I would think. But fact is I Don’t know has anyone done it recently.

But as I say it’s not necessary. Pick your gear range to suit your terrain.

The bike can climb very well but for me not at walking pace.

I've never been on a V20, but if you made it up a hill on the Catrike you should be able to do the same gearing with the V20 because it is significantly lighter allowing you to carry / maintain higher speeds. Not immediately, but once you become proficient it should not be a problem I wouldn't think. You can't push hard without including balance in the equation but the weight savings should make up for that. (My experience is that the pulling with the arms thing is a small factor.)

I have a catrike 700 built lightly and vendetta. It is actually overall easier to climb steep pinch points and gradients on the catrike despite a slight weight penalty.There is about 3 kg difference between 700 and ultegra equipped vendetta. Not having to balance and a 24 to 36 granny makes a difference and light of any hill at 200 watts. See Charles I told you I love my triples. But once under 7 -8 klm / hr the vendetta is difficult. At walking pace you are better and safer walking. That’s my experience.

But note we are talking long inclines 10% and greater here. So make em rare.

Without doubt a proficient fit strong vendetta rider can ride steep terrain and climb well all day night long See Jason.

But I reckon most of us boom parallel vendetta pilots would struggle on walking pace steep inclines once we are in 100 klm or so. No matter who you are.

If I’m to climb steep mountains I’d reluctantly reach for the 7 kg df and tf Mille bib shorts with ass cream to go.

But that’s an if lol.

The vendetta is truly a great bike capable in hills and is faster on rolling hills and everywhere else. Thanks to it’s great design.

So c3 pilot build your bike and ride it often and watch your body weight fall. Heck you’ll be ditching those disc brakes before you know it lol.

 

[ak-tux]

The new V20, S40 and Q45 have Standard English bottom bracket shells at 68mm right? I therefore see nothing stopping someone with a Triple crankset from fitting one or did I miss something?

Ride what you like, and like what you ride!

 

[waswadener]

After trying many different setups, the following is my favorite:

--- Brakes: SRAM HydroR. I’ve run the Red, Force and Rival versions. All perform identically awesome and are amazingly reliable. I tend to prefer the Rival ones because, though the Red / Force’s carbon levers are more bling and weigh a few grams less than Rival’s alloy levers, I feel less stressed when I inevitably scratch an alloy Rival lever, than scratch a carbon one. By the way, 160mm centerlock rotors (my favorites are Shimano XT RT81 Ice Tech Centerlock) with Shimano SM-RT96 lock rings fit right up to both the front and rear of my V20; no fussing or filing required.

Note: I’ve tried three or four different mechanical discs. Mechanical discs work much better than rim brakes, and hydraulic discs work much better for me than mechanical discs. I’ve also Shimano hydro road discs (both the Ultegra and 105 versions), which work awesome. I settled on the SRAM HydroR’s, as opposed to the Shimano’s because SRAM systems have more capability with 1x11 drivetrains (see next bullet).

--- Drivetrain: 1x11 because it just plain works, achieves the range I need, and capital “N” Never drops a chain. My SRAM Rival 1 2.1 long cage derailleur, PG-1130 11-42 cassette and 34t single chainring cover me from slow to fast enough. I can grind up the steepest hills at 4mph when necessary, and spin up to almost 26mph. Yes, I know there are those who may think to themselves that if I can’t climb a 15% grade at 6 mph, then I need to lose 15 lbs and hit the weight room. While that might be true, I nevertheless need the capability to grind away at 4mph with my heart rate under control because, though I can power up any foreseeable hill at 6mph when my legs are fresh, I need the 4mph gear when the legs begin to tire after 8 hours, or on rides where early super-intense efforts will have an accumulated negative effect many hours later. Then there’s top speed … For me, spinning out at 26 is not a problem because for my typical long rides, I should actually back off and let my legs rest if I’m going faster than 22-ish anyways. The minor down-side of 1x11 is the gaps between the smallest two cogs are a little bigger than might be theoretically perfect. For me I’m happy to trade the ratio gap for a system that always works, and never drops a chain. Chain drops may be no big deal to some but for me they’re a thing. Courtesy of a drop-chain crash on my wedgie about three years ago, my left hand is permanently messed up a little bit. So, I love not having to worry about chain drops, especially on a bike so fast as the V20.

Just my opinions. Hope the information helps. I’d be happy to share my V20’s specific setup details, if that would be useful.

 

[jond]

I never liked avid brakes. Using dot brake fluid . Anhydrous absorbs water and is pretty nasty stuff generally . And yes I did flush change fluid as per spec.Inevitably my experience was one of corrosion and seizing . In deed a pair of juicy ultimates failed in warranty. Avid were acquired by Sram. Give me mineral oil blood for brakes. Go shimano etc. couple things less to worry about. Opinion only.

 

[Robert O]

I'm running Red compact double, at 52-36. My cassette is 11sp 11-36. This is good for short climbs until the front wheel spins out, but I'm toying with switching to 50-34. I ran rim brakes for the first couple of years on my V20, then went to TRP Spyre disc brakes last fall. They've been great, especially when I have to moderate speeds while leading groups of riders down steep descents; with the rim brakes, I'd worry about overheating the rims.

 

[paco1961]

On my S40 I’m running 50:34, 11-36 w TRP Spyre mechanicals, 160 fr, 140 r. All works great for gearing on just about any climb. Any taller combo than 34/36 and I’d be doing a track stand! 5mph is as slow as I can stay upright.