Pedal Steer

[mickjordan]

This may seem a strange question but here goes anyway. Is a goal of the CZ Xen master to (a) steer with the feet or (b) not steer with the feet.

I ask because when you are learning, steering with your feet inadvertently is what makes a CZ seem so tricky. Once you learn to balance the bike and pedal good circles, the bike stays balanced until you do something with your feet that again invokes pedal steer. For example, one of my scary moments was rotating my feet through 180 backwards while coasting down a descent, something you do without thinking on a DF bike. I nearly lost it because of the accidental pedal steer.

So one view would be that you need stable feet without steer and all steering should be induced by the bars and/or body lean. The other view would be that you get so good at pedal steer that you can turn corners without the hands on the bars. I would hope its the latter, but this is evidently something that takes a lot of time, whereas no hands riding on a DF bike is something a novice can do quite quickly since it only requires body balance.

 

[Kim Tolhurst_2]

Pedal Steer, lets see.

Lets see. The First Ride lessons are to minimise leg steer as an interferance and at the same time to induce the legs to be a main part of steering with arms as further guide. As experience is gained and especially from using the first ride lessons, the arms are mainly used as part of power input, push to go faster on the flat and pull to go uphill. Lets see again and this time at the accomplished CB riders harmony of body, limbs and CB. We break it down, legs are the main steer factor and hands complimentary.

 

[billyk]

Of course I agree with Kim T ...

Of course I agree with Kim T, but ...

Learning to ride my Quest 2 no-hands was a real eye-opener. In particular, it taught me that a steady cadence was the key to avoiding pedal-steer. After a few weeks practice, I now ride miles on end without touching the bars, including around corners, and feel steadier on the bike than I did holding on. It's not so much that I'm steering with my feet. After all, the amount you turn the bars - except at very low speed - is small, as most steering is done by leaning. It's that with a steady cadence and no hands I become more connected to the bike. The body English feels more natural.

On an upright bike you control the lean with the seat between your legs. It gives a direct connection to what the bike is doing. On a CZ you don't have that. (In fact, I used to picture adding a hip cradle to give me that connection). But the secret really is to ride no hands - steady cadence. It feels great.

But even though I am totally comfortable riding the Quest no-hands, that's only while pedaling. Coasting is much harder. Without the pedaling, the connection is lost, for me at least.

In the same vein I have the same experience mickjordan describes: pedaling backwards is a very weird and destabilizing feeling. I'm not talking about no-hands. No way would I try that. I feel about to lose the thing coasting (on the flat) and pedaling backwards. Wow! Try this carefully!

BK

 

[John Dorlon]

+1 on leaning

+1 on lean steering. I found myself thinking the other day that I was steering like I would on a motorcycle.

I don't intentionally steer with my feet, ever. I do sometimes intentionally steer with my hands (when I am going to slow for leaning to work).

I think riding comfortable on the Cruzbike is more about getting your body to learn how to counteract the pedal steer than actual steering. There is probably some of that in the feet and some in the arms (more arms when going slow). After a while you don't think about it.

 

[Rod Read]

Learning to Ride

Very well communicated, I am waiting for my CB to be built bt my LBS. I am thinking that the insight all of you have related is giving me a good understanding of what to exspect when learning to ride my CB. Thanks, Great post!

Rod

 

[John Tolhurst]

I've been riding my Vendetta

I've been riding my Vendetta recently, a new one. I've enjoyed being able to coast no hands and be able to lean the bike either way by moving my head. Or, being able to ride straight, yet adjust the tracking, the line, the aim at the apex, not by interupting the pedalling, or the body's engagement with the frame, but by moving the head across. Swoopable!

 

[Eric Winn]

I was thinking about this as

I was thinking about this as I rode the Q today and came to the same conclusion Kim discusses. Mostly leg with arms acting more like shock absorbers/dampners...

Banking for a turn is what I really enjoy on a Cruzbike. Pedaling backward doesn't seem to bother me. I was doing this a bit on my first day riding although I don't do it much.

-Eric

 

[John Dorlon]

pedalling backwards

I played with pedalling backwards today too...doesn't bother me either. How about pedalling with one foot unclipped? I can too that too. I just wish I had a place to rest the unclipped foot!

 

[MrSteve]

Steering

Steering with body movements at speed:

-I play with the steering, just like Mr.Tolhurst describes in his post about his new Vendetta.
You can steer the bike with differential pressure on the pedals, wagging alternate knees
in or out, flapping alternate elbows in or out, shifting weight back and forth... and yes, even wagging your head.
If you're feeling adventurous, try steering with just the handlebars....

-I lean my bicycle, at speed, naturally.
By naturally, I mean that my body stays aligned with my bike.
There's no need to hang off: our recumbents have a ridiculous amount of available lean angle.
As an added bonus, we can pedal through the whole turn, without hitting anything with our pedaling feet.


Steering at slow speeds:
-I have always tried to steer with my weight centered between the wheels.
That means, on the Cruzbike, sitting up in the seat.
Also, that usually means that I'm mainly using the handlebars for steering.

Maybe that's why, when you ride your recumbent off-road, usually slowly, you usually
want a much more upright -less reclined- seat!

-I lean my bicycle through low-speed turns naturally too.
Since the bike weighs so much less than I do, there's no need to do
anything fancy.


Pedaling backwards?
I've done it a few times, trying to re-seat the chain onto a chainring.



-Steve

 

[John Tolhurst]

Steve, 
when you lean into a

Steve,
when you lean into a corner with your body weight, does the intertia of the crank create the counter steer? I ask this because I find it hard to find any sensation of having made any counter steer input.

 

[billyk]

inertia of the crank

Unsurprisingly, JT has an interesting suggestion: that the mass of the crank tends to create a countersteer (by lagging behind the lean) at the beginning of a leaning turn. Maybe! I've wondered about this because on an upright bike I definitely notice my instinctual countersteer, but not at all on a Cruzbike, despite trying to notice it. Unfortunately it is raining and about 35 degrees here, and I don't need to go to work today, so I'm not going to get out and try it. But that sounds very possible.

 

[MrSteve]

Countersteer

I'm unaware of exactly how I initiate countersteer on my bike, only that -of course- I do.

I'm confident that it's me doing the countersteering and that it's not the bike, simply
because initiating countersteer while entering a turn is what I do.

Remember, of course, that what I do is simply what I do; you guys will be entering turns a bit different!

I wonder why, John, you're thinking about the rotational energy in your cranks/feet/legs
over the rotational energy
(excuse my terminology... I'm not a physicist)
- in your front wheel?
You see, I'm sure that you are feeling useful feedback through your feet... as well as providing
useful steering input through your feet.
-----
Here's a little story.
It ought to illustrate how deeply ingrained countersteering is in me!

Way back in the early '80s, in the last century, my boss hosted a beach party.
It took place on a large, isolated inland lake... it was off the beaten path.
It was fun. How could it not?

Anyway, there were a few Kawasaki Jetskis available for us all to play with.
Google these, if you're unfamiliar with 'em.
Basically, these little boats were the grandfathers of all jetskis and personal watercraft today.

So, I hopped aboard a Jetski and whacked the throttle wide open.
So far, so good.
When I went to turn the boat, I instinctively applied countersteer to the handlebar (tiller).
*Splash!*
I tried it again;
*splash*.
And again:
*SPLASH*.

I knew at the time exactly what was going on.
Countersteering was throwing the boat opposite of my intended direction, throwing
me off.
Literally throwing me off!
-And I was held hostage by my reflexes, honed by riding motorcycles.


So, I'm positive that I'm initiating turns on my bike by appling countersteer....

Finally, I'm equally positive that my countersteering input must be miniscule
in comparason to the effort required to initiate a turn on a much heavier
motorcycle, rolling on much heavier wheels, going much, much faster than a bicycle!



-Steve

 

[John Tolhurst]

Thanks Steve, that's

Thanks Steve, that's instructive.