power assist is definately a reasonable subclass

buyagain

Well-Known Member
I've put enough mileage on my "Avalon" cruzbike to draw some rather definitive conclusions about the design. Make no mistake about it the Avalon as a conversion cruzbike is very much a viable sport version of the Cruzbike. Most interests at this site break into 2 or maybe 3 categories of bikers. I know that's over simplified but this is to let the reader know that my interests are mainly much more sport and recreation than the more serious and astute bikers who hang at this sight. So my writings and interests will center mainly in category 3. Where competition bikers, we shall say, are category 1 and commuters and serious Hobbyist, we might say, are category 2 bikers.
Conversions bikes are a great way for new comers with limited budgets to get their feet wet. For those at their prime income earning years I doubt will have the time or inclination to tinker as required for the conversion cruzbikes and, so, are prime candidates for the everything else offered at Cruzbikes.

If you are a fun and recreation category 3 type rider then you might be interested in a sub category that I call the true power assisted sport cruzbike. I must insist that one does not confuse my bike with what is seen as motored bikes found all over the internet. Indeed the mine is so light and small that most states govern the bike as any non-motored bike. Yet is robust enough to cross county cruse with the best of them. Possibly most interesting is how the bike-ability or shall we say how it peddles in not seriously comprised. So if you leave any comments here I will elaborate and attempt to back up my claims. I must say, though, Australia is very disappointing in that their street or traffic rules are very strict as to what power levels thus requiring some licensing I believe.
 
Power assist does adapt well on many of the Cruzbike models.
One problem which you mentioned is what you are allowed to use so it still qualifies as a bike.

In Australia they are only allowed 180 W power and in EU only 250 W and you have to pedal or the assist stops.
Is there a gasoline powered motor that’s legal in Australia or EU?

With an electric assist you have many legal options for Australia and EU.

Peder
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
Whatever the rights or wrongs of the laws ... I can say that an efficient bicycle can go pretty well on a small amount of power, say 180W. It should be enough for 35 kph, or over 40 kph if we add human power from time to time.

To electrify, which of our models would you suggest we utilise?
 

Doug Burton

Zen MBB Master
Hi Buyagain,

Aren't we just one big happy family? :D

I have given some thought to Cruzbike market segmentation, and I fit into your third category, within subcategory "tinkerer". I probably don't have time for it, but I am compelled to do it anyway (hobbies are what we do the other stuff to support, right?)!

I was working with Sanyo a few years ago when they were developing this (unfortunately not the project I was working on, but in the same facility!):

http://us.sanyo.com/eneloopbike
http://us.sanyo.com/News/SANYO-Unveils-its-eneloop-bike-to-U-S-Bicycle-Market-at-Interbike-2009

At the time, they were marketing a simpler version for "shopping bikes", popular Japanese sub-genus for utilitarian use. Not unusual to get passed by a 70-year-old lady pedalling about 12 RPM and going 20mph!, and that's without the motor engaged! :shock:

It's a clever system where the motor power is proportionally-regulated by a strain gauge resistive unit mounted in the bottom bracket (sort of like a Power Tap in reverse) that reduces assist as you get closer to 16mph, but gives a big punch for climbing hills. I got to ride one and it was very impressive - completely unobtrusive, and lightweight due to lithuim or NiMH batteries. At that stage the bikes were only about $800 US. I tried to get them to give me a power unit (professional courtesy and all that), but of course they just politely chuckled.

They have since completed developing the multi-mode regenerative charging used on the model in the link, hence the added cost. 40 mile range is very impressive for relatively small batteries, but batteries and battery management are Sanyo's forte.

I think Cruzbikes are exceptionally well-adapted for power assist. Every once in a while I get an urge to develop one for myself. The Sofrider is great for this because there's lots of structure to support the assist components. The Quest could support a well-integrated Li Ion system as well.

Hmmm...
 

rearengine

Active Member
John..
I could see a Qwest with hub motor , and battery mounts for lifpo bats low under the seat... I"m going to try this on my Tiera frame with 20" wheels .. I already know it's a blast to ride with power asist, as per the pic.. Bill
78_6b9bf13282aabecdc4ef1acbf1dc73fc
 

buyagain

Well-Known Member
Well I must say, right out of the box, Doug, you and John Tolhurst, and even Peder prove my point rather quickly. All please note the predisposition toward "Electric" as the way to go right from the start. I cautioned right from the beginning and am requesting now to please open the door to even wider possibilities than electric. I promised right from the beginning that my engine setup is a fresh look at an old problem and not obvious at first.
I, like you, have a keen interest in electric too. I own the only "self propelled" battery electric lawn mower in my neighborhood. I was the first owner South of Boston when they first came out. Indeed I have a wall full of trophies won as a competition electric model airplane designer and pilot. Not to brag but I'm possibly the finest and best RC electric Model Airplane pilot that ever lived. In 1993 there were maybe 5 electric modelers in the country who could design and fly an RC electric model airplane weighing under 12 ounces all up batteries and engine. Their controls had to include full proportional elevator and aileron and throttle control. Mine came in at 8.75 ounces and please note that was long before the lipoly batteries and the brushless motors of today. Back then I even got applause from spectators for just landing without crashing the little begger. Yeah I'm bragging but I'm also trying to make a point that if I really understand electric then there had better be a good reason why my bike has a cute little Robin 4 stroke gasoline engine hanging off it. LOL
So If your still interested I will try to explain. For starters, John Tolhurst, 180 watts in no way to compare power between Electrics and Gas. Electrics get all their power almost instantly as compared to Gas which must develop its power at a higher revolution. thus explaining why electrics can get away with no transmission. I digress but suffices to say I would be very depressed if that 180 watt rule for Australia is for gas powered too (180 watts = 1/4 hp). I would definitely appreciate anything you have on this. I simply don't have my data together nor have I any experience with 180 watt electric exept one hanging off of one of my old competitions RC Electric models. LOL In the hopes that EU, Australia and others may have a different tolerance for Gas than electric I would be appreciative for any info on this. I hope this does not get political about Gas as apposed to electric, pppppalllleeeeaazzzzee! My little robin engine comes in a 1.1hp or a 1.6 hp (820 watts and 1193 watts respectively) I own the 1193 watts. If anyone has regulations or rules if gas power is different. I would appreciate any input on the Gas that is.

PS I was lying about being the best pilot and all. But let me tell you that in extreme competition when the final seconds before take off yelling that out would really un-nerve some of my competition. ROFALMAO
 

WhiteSilvio

Well-Known Member
buyagain wrote: ROFALMAO
Hi Buyagain,
Just wondering if you can supply the meaning of "ROFALMAO". I can't find it in the "urbandictionary.com" which provides many of the answers to acronyms. I tried acronyms.com, but still couldn't find the answer. If you have an answer, I would be interested.

ROTFLMAO - I'm assuming that this is closely related, "rolling on the floor laughing one's bottom off"! :lol:
Regards,
John R.
 

buyagain

Well-Known Member
WhiteSilvio wrote: ROTFLMAO - I'm assuming that this is closely related, "rolling on the floor laughing one's bottom off"! :lol:
Regards,
John R.

Hi John. Precisely. :mrgreen: That strategy of bragging at contests worked similar to Cassius Clay's head trips.
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
Don't know about politics, but there is a widening market enthusiasm for electric assist on bicycles, less so for gas assist judging by what I see of the industry.

Bolt on motors are where honda got started, and in fact bolt on motors before that were how one built motorcycles to begin with, which is why very old motorcyles still carry the mark of a bicycle in their appearance. And the french had their own love affair of pedal-gas combos.

I think when this came up on the forum earlier I referred to John Tetz, who says just a wee bit of power can make a big difference and that is the mentality where I see great synergy with bicycles. When you go to 1000 W you are in a whole new branch of technology in my opinion, because many of the fundamentals of bicycle design evaporate, they just don't mater, like aerodynamics (a bit o dirty air, no worries I have enough power) and weight (no worries I have enough power).

Without in any way tarnishing your implementation or your reasons, my own personal vision is different, and is to continue on making a highly efficient bicycle, wrap it in convenient warped surface solar panels that are tuned aerodynamically, and get to run at 30kph on sunlight alone, in a package that makes commercial sense. I'm trying to resist the allure of scaling up the power supply and trying to stay disciplined on reducing the power needs. This is what Sigma is, and that is why Sigma exists in our portfolio. Sigma when dressed with solar fairings suffers nothing in difficult cross winds where as the front wheel drive format is less forgiving. I was not 30 minutes ago studying how to prototype a more narrow handlebar position for Sigma that would further reduce its power needs. I just hope I can stay with Sigma when this happens - as we are benchmarking between a highly modified prototype Sigma and the prototype Vendetta.

Your wonderful experience in the electrics field has me green, I do not have these abilities. But whether in the end the added power storage is via batteries or gasoline probably doesn't matter that much except for where the market and industry seems to be headed.
 

buyagain

Well-Known Member
Hi Rear Engine;
I place your comments in there with all the electric here on this thread. In a polite way I wish to steer the conversation rather to a possible Gasoline solution, though. Indeed your photo is very definitely a Gasoline example. Your friction drive I'm afraid relegates it as one of those generic also runs so prevalent all over the Internet.

Though not obvious, as I mentioned earlier, I would direct everyone to look at the little belt and pulley rig on my back tire. That has proven to be one the most important and unique break though features. This among other reasons is what motivates me to try and inform everyone here that I really think I'm on to something here. Though not obvious or glamorous I must contend this has made my rig an engineering brake though.

While I'm steering everyone to consider a Gasoline solution let me entice you with the following factoids. My entire capital outlay for my Avalon sport cruzbike is right at $1000 (ok maybe $1100). That is the bike, Cruzbike kit, engine drive and all. Ok here is another factoid. I get 114 miles per gal and I love to pay the pump guy 75 cent to buck and half for a fill-up. That's real rush, let me tell you. With my new tank I have a 120 miles between fill-ups.
Once again if I continue to get responses here I will elaborate more on exactly what all the belt and pulley is about and why its so important.
I can show you example after example of this design doing cross continent cruses. You will find no electrics doing this quite yet.
I have great hope for electrics. Ill even give you a stock tip. Check out Altair Nano (ALTR) They have the patent on the "Lithium Ion Titanate" battery. However, I'm still contending my little engine is the engine that could. LOL
 
I like the idea of power assist also gas powered.
http://www.bikeengines.com/info.htm

But even the smallest models aren’t legal in EU or Australia because they have too much power.
The power output is 180 W in Australia and 250 W in EU so with a gas powered engine you are way over that limit.

So Cruzbike or other bicycle manufactures would get in trouble selling an assist that exceeds the limit of a country.
The bike can possibly be registered but that would mean it would cost extra and other rules would apply.

The system is good just refuel and you can ride a good distance.
The belt drive seems to be a good system I have read about them before.
In the USA they are legal in most of the states but possibly not in all the states?
Is it legal in Canada?

It’s good that you like your assist and many of us would like to hear more about your experience with it.
Perhaps more customers in the USA would like a gas powered conversion from Cruzbike?


Peder
 

currystomper

Well-Known Member
I agree that power assist is a good sub class - I'm thinking of going electric assist in the longer term for my non leisure rides. ie for commuting and load hauling shopping/recycling). I would like assist for the hills on the way into work to reduce my commute time down to under an hour and assist for hauling loads up the hill to the shops/recycling center to reduce me car use further!!

Also I have seen some hub motor on EBay which look like they will suit my budget!!

Cheers

Currystom'

(We've had the snow back again last week!! I'm Looking forward to a getting miles on the conversion - just doesn't seem to be happening at the moment, either its dark, snowing or your ready to go out and the front tyre has a slow puncture ;-) )
 

rearengine

Active Member
Buyagain
I do like your bike, and the belt & pulley set up with centrifucal clutch .. My friction drive project was never anything more than an excuse to get my hands durty :) As far as range , we all know gas is the winner.. I think it all comes down to the type of riding one wants, or needs to do.. I have a hub motor in a 20" wheel on my mongoose bike.. My cruzbike still has 26" wheels.. I am thinking of putting the 20" hub motor wheel on the Tiara cruzebike, with a 20" front wheel..This will give me an idea if I like it , then maybe a Quest.. The rear drop outs should be just right... As i said in another post, I live on a quiet cul-de-sac , and friends with all , and want to keep it that way :lol: And it"s kind of fun being a little stelthy as you pass the roadies going up hill .. I"ve been a little hesatint about putting this pic on here, not being a cruz.. This is the same frame as in my previous post.. You can tell, it"s been a long winter here in WI.. tinker ,tinker, tinker :D take care Bill

PS going to AZ starting tomorrow for 2 weeks :)
78_4019a1e367479e29a11c75569d04403c
 

rearengine

Active Member
Doug & John T..


I was also thinking of running the tellie tube out the bottom of the steering tube with the same adapter as on top .. I have a 20" wheel with Caprieo hub 21"-106" gear range ... See my posted pic above.. Maybe leg problems with the fork, just thought of that.. Wadayathink ... Bill
 

Doug Burton

Zen MBB Master
Hi Bill,

you been holding out on us - that looks like a blast to ride!

Now what are you trying to do with the steering tube? A little more info?

And which motor hub is that?

Best,

Doug
 

rearengine

Active Member
Doug ... I didn"t make it very clear.. I should have told you i was thinking of putting the Cruz kit on this configuration, with the stem adaptor comming up from the bottom of the steerer rather than on top by the handel bars .. The 20" motor wheel would be on the rear, and the 20" Capprio wheel on the front .. Now if you ask why ? I am afraid I don't have a very good answer.. :? The hub motor is an Aoutma 500 watt brushless ,50 amp controller , 36 volt sla battery ( 3-12 volts ) Thanks for taking a look... Bill Kind of like the pic..
78_263e5c1f00f5c6a0ae3116ccfb44be6e
 

rearengine

Active Member
Assist subclass has my vote..Gas or electric..



Going to be off the computer for 2 weeks ... See ya all latter.. take care Bill
 

buyagain

Well-Known Member
Pretty clear here we are all bullish on Electrics. JohnTolhurst, I don't think of you as a class 3 (sport bike tinkerer.) So you are out of order posting at this site. LOL Doug deserves his own special category too. (But lets don't go there right now) :lol:

Seriously, With all else that you do here I recognize an extreme need for time efficiency on your part. What I mean is that in the order of things., If I were forced to make a serious time and motion study for a business direction "Electrics" are hands down the answer for the future. So I'm really in full agreement with you here.

That said, the engineer in me says that If I were designing a few of just the right " motor assists" for the immediate future, this cute little Golden Eagle Bike engine set up is literally gushing with advantages over electric. And its obtainable right now from Golden Eagle. John Tolhurst, the owner of Golden Engines reminds me of you. You, of all, should recognize good engineering sometimes only shows up in the finished hands on product experience. That's exactly what I'm admiring from Golden Eagle. Their new air cooled centrifugal clutch, Kevlar belt, composite plastic snap on pulley though not glamorous are just plain well executed efficiency. The engine (Robin 4 stoke) is a breeze to start. An absolute must for my wife, let me tell you! She is not the slightest inclined with starting motors yet has no trouble with this one. The quality of this super industrial grade motor is but one more distinction from this run of the mill internet stuff. The whole motor installation runs around 14 lbs. The bike remains very transportable. I carry both mine and my wifes on a trunk mounted bike rack. (total 120 or so lbs for both bikes)
I'm starting to sound like a commercial so I'll quit now and post the web site.
Even if some type of licensing is required I'm coming out in favor of this rig. Transportablility, great price and economy, yet light enough to stay bike-able or peddle-able is my bottom line here. John I don't see those features on any of the French, Honda, other gas motors you referred to.
http://www.bikeengines.com/howto.htm
Special note to Rearengine; My 4 stroke is extremely low pitched and quiet as compared to all the other motors out there. It simply does not produce that hi pitch of the 2 cycles. It's just a pleasant putput. LOL I guess I'm trying to convey that I'm seeing the same engineering quality at Golden Eagle as I see at Cruzbike.
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
Dear buyagain,
I am in a supra-overarching-everpresent class of my own, but thanks for asking. :geek: A generalist from the beginning and to the end, probably.

This gas assist sounds like a very cute permutation of the cruzbike, why not draw up a parts specification and order list and installation guide, based on your navigation through the minefield?
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
Are the live rear seat stays on your avalon up to the torque loading? If you jamb the wheel and rev the motor, it will tend to want to make the seat stays rotate backwards, is that right? Is there anything other than loads coped for with bending moments, to prevent that?

Why would you not throw that black lump above the disused BB shell, up behind the seat shell?
 

buyagain

Well-Known Member
John Tolhurst wrote: why not draw up a parts specification and order list and installation guide, based on your navigation through the minefield?

With some minor exception like the way I attached the engine torsion bar to the rear stay, Golden Eagle Bike Engine has pretty well documented all this.

http://www.bikeengines.com/howto.htm
I'm more than happy to clarify points or discussions derived the web site.
John Tolhurst wrote: Are the live rear seat stays on your avalon up to the torque loading?

There is nothing going on back there that is any different than the original peddle power configuration. As a matter of fact, clutch mitigates sudden or jolting some what. My wife can't drive a motor scooter or anything like that because she has not learned the coordination required to accelerate. The transfer of power with this clutch is so transparent and gentle that My wife has no problem. If she needs the engine it is simply there in a gentle way when pressing the throttle on the handlebar.

John Tolhurst wrote: Why would you not throw that black lump above the disused BB shell, up behind the seat shell?
John, those are my spare tube and tools. Behind the seat pan of hanging off that BB post, makes no difference to me. I'm temped to rig some sort of trailer If I ever go trekking.

P.S. Kind a cool that all this translates to an "All wheel drive system" too. That might even off-set the front wheel slippage in gravel some have complained of on this site.
 
Top