Peter Lundgren
New Member
This is the place to put them when you have a recumbent...
Reflectives on your shoes
- Thread starter Peter Lundgren
- Start date
ChaleJake
Guru
Had not thought of adding reflective tape to my shoes. Good idea.
velocio
Austrian roadside steckerlfisch (fish on a stick)
Peter, looks like some pretty meticulous scissors (or Exacto knife) work on the reflective tape!
More reflectors is always more better, but I'd encourage folks installing reflective tape anywhere on their bike to test the effect in the dark with a flashlight to be certain it's working the way you expect. Most reflective tape gives a very specular reflection, rather than the diffuse reflection of the 3-D plastic reflectors the CPSC mandates on the rear of bikes (but few recreational cyclists seem to have in place). An effect of this is that light striking the reflective tape from a point source, such as, say, a car's headlight, will be reflected back out in a single direction and most often not in the direction of the light source. In a city environment filled with light sources this is less worrisome, but before counting on reflective tape on the bottom of your shoes to alert an oncoming car on a rural road to your presence please test that out. There's some curvature to the bottom of most shoes, which helps reflect incoming light in several directions, so that's a plus.
I was reminded of reflective tape's very specular reflection recently when I installed a new tire with a reflective sidewall + some reflective tape dots on the wheels of a bike of mine that's been on loan to a friend since my hands imploded and I switched to recumbents a couple of years ago. After getting the reflective bits installed I turned the lights off in my livingroom/bicycle lounge and shined a small headlamp at the bike. Voila'! The reflective tire sidewall and dots lit up enough to make me squint. My friend, who was standing right next to me shoulder-to-shoulder, said, "Well that doesn't work at all!" What?! We switched positions and then nobody saw any reflection. I handed her the headlamp and the reflectors lit up like mad for her, but almost no light was reflected in my direction -- just 2 feet to her side. I realized that the only time the reflectors were visible at all is when the illumination source and the viewer were coincident and on a normal to the plane of the wheels & bike frame. A possible inference is that for largely flat bottomed shoes that are pedaling a high BB recumbent reflective tape will only reflect significant light back to the source if the source is approaching head-on and in the same lane you're in.
My "urban assault vehicle" bike has CPSC conspicuity tape all over it. If you put that tape on round frame tubes and curved Esge fenders light is reflected in all kinds of directions.
-Jack
More reflectors is always more better, but I'd encourage folks installing reflective tape anywhere on their bike to test the effect in the dark with a flashlight to be certain it's working the way you expect. Most reflective tape gives a very specular reflection, rather than the diffuse reflection of the 3-D plastic reflectors the CPSC mandates on the rear of bikes (but few recreational cyclists seem to have in place). An effect of this is that light striking the reflective tape from a point source, such as, say, a car's headlight, will be reflected back out in a single direction and most often not in the direction of the light source. In a city environment filled with light sources this is less worrisome, but before counting on reflective tape on the bottom of your shoes to alert an oncoming car on a rural road to your presence please test that out. There's some curvature to the bottom of most shoes, which helps reflect incoming light in several directions, so that's a plus.
I was reminded of reflective tape's very specular reflection recently when I installed a new tire with a reflective sidewall + some reflective tape dots on the wheels of a bike of mine that's been on loan to a friend since my hands imploded and I switched to recumbents a couple of years ago. After getting the reflective bits installed I turned the lights off in my livingroom/bicycle lounge and shined a small headlamp at the bike. Voila'! The reflective tire sidewall and dots lit up enough to make me squint. My friend, who was standing right next to me shoulder-to-shoulder, said, "Well that doesn't work at all!" What?! We switched positions and then nobody saw any reflection. I handed her the headlamp and the reflectors lit up like mad for her, but almost no light was reflected in my direction -- just 2 feet to her side. I realized that the only time the reflectors were visible at all is when the illumination source and the viewer were coincident and on a normal to the plane of the wheels & bike frame. A possible inference is that for largely flat bottomed shoes that are pedaling a high BB recumbent reflective tape will only reflect significant light back to the source if the source is approaching head-on and in the same lane you're in.
My "urban assault vehicle" bike has CPSC conspicuity tape all over it. If you put that tape on round frame tubes and curved Esge fenders light is reflected in all kinds of directions.
-Jack
benphyr
Guru-me-not
Retroreflectivity is the word that describes the stuff designed (discovered) to specifically reflect back to the light source. One main area of use is in traffic markings: street signs and lines on the road. The lines on the road are actually whatever colour traffic paint and then they add glass beads that stick to the top of the paint surface. When light shines from your car for example it enters each bead and reflects off the inside surfaces of the sphere and returns directly back towards your car. Pretty amazing stuff.
velocio
Austrian roadside steckerlfisch (fish on a stick)
Nyup, retroreflectors can be made in various ways, but all I'm familiar with are 3 dimensional; i.e. 2-d reflective tape isn't an effective retroreflector. Some reflective tapes have a textured surface to give a 3'rd dimension of sorts and are better at scattering light in a bunch of directions, but I'm not aware of any that are truly retroreflectors. Does anyone know of reflective tape that truly implements retroreflectivity? My approach with reflective tape has been to get it pointing in as many directions as possible, favoring directions that threats are more likely to approach from (the rear, broadside).
In a previous life I was a radar engineer and dealt with similar issues at microwave frequencies. It's pretty amazing that many of the things that humans build in the modern world look like a retroreflector if you squirt some microwave energy on them. BTW, this is why you'll struggle to find any right angles (really orthogonal planes) on military aircraft, tanks and increasingly ships anymore. If not carefully designed then features on those vehicles end up acting like retroreflectors at microwave frequencies and light up like the proverbial Christmas tree when sprayed with energy of the right type. On bikes we have the opposite problem, I'm seeking the ultimate un-stealthy bike design. Hmmm... maybe Christmas tree lights aren't a bad idea ...
-Jack
In a previous life I was a radar engineer and dealt with similar issues at microwave frequencies. It's pretty amazing that many of the things that humans build in the modern world look like a retroreflector if you squirt some microwave energy on them. BTW, this is why you'll struggle to find any right angles (really orthogonal planes) on military aircraft, tanks and increasingly ships anymore. If not carefully designed then features on those vehicles end up acting like retroreflectors at microwave frequencies and light up like the proverbial Christmas tree when sprayed with energy of the right type. On bikes we have the opposite problem, I'm seeking the ultimate un-stealthy bike design. Hmmm... maybe Christmas tree lights aren't a bad idea ...
-Jack
benphyr
Guru-me-not
3M doesn’t sell it currently anyway. Rustoleum has one at Homeless Depot and apparently Canadian Tire that specifically states under direct headlights and directions state to spray lightly not appear wet. So my read is it works less well than reflective tape but is a good idea and covers more surface area.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Ol...ve-Finish-Spray-Paint-6-Pack-214944/202058511
Albedo100 also seems to make one.
Because of the way the real ones work, highly dependent on refractions and reflections of light, a spray can would be highly unlikely to successfully retroreflect. Reflect, yes, but that is as @velocio said only orthogonal to the surface plane; that is you have to be exactly in the perfect spot to get reflection as opposed to retroreflection where the amount of light heading back towards the light source is greater over a significant angle range from the slight source.
It actually explains why the traffic lines disappear so much in heavy rain. The beads on the surface of the paint either have water completely covering them or covering the areas between them which changes the refraction and reflecton of light through and off surface changes.
In conclusion, if you cover or coat your reflective stuff you are going to decrease significantly if not entirely the reflective properties.
Peter Lundgren
New Member
I´m a ultra endurance racer by heart, so I train and race, day and night. Being visible is really important for me. I have front facing reflective tape on my helmet, frame, crank arms and under the shoes. But more importantly than that, I´m also always running a Lupine SL AF 7 front light, day and night. The reflective material under my shoes is actually really visible (look at my profile picture). Not so much because of the slight curvature to the bottom of the shoes. It has more to do with the fact that something that is continuously moving up and down is much more visible than a stationary object. Also how I angle my foot with respect to the ground changes during the pedal stroke which helps with respect to different entrance angles. Under the shoes I´m using 3M SOLAS reflective tape, which according to the 3M Technical Data Sheet "utilize the principle of retroreflection and are comprised of an encapsulated lens optical design that provides high reflectivity over a wide range of entrance angles, whether dry or wet." Hopefully that also improves the visibility.
You are absolutely right about the fact the all reflective tapes have a, more or less, specular reflection. That´s why I also have a lot of reflective stuff all over my bike, in all directions. Front, rear and side. More reflectors is always better!
velocio
Austrian roadside steckerlfisch (fish on a stick)
I'm not an ultra endurance racer, due in part b/c of my heart, but I also enjoy riding at night. Especially now that there's virtually no traffic on the roads after dark. A slight pandemic dividend ...
Use all the things for safety. More is more better. How about a reflective flag with one of those twirly windsocks?
Doesn't the profile pic demonstrate that the reflective material on the soles of your shoes is extremely visible by someone standing directly in front of you shining a flashlight at you? This demonstrates the tape is decently reflective in the specular sense, but says nothing about its retroreflective characteristics. A more helpful photo/test would be to have someone stand 50 feet in front of you, 15 feet to the side of your path and aim a flashlight directly in front of them (not at you), then see how much light is reflected back to that viewer. I suspect not much. As I mentioned earlier, I've no doubt that reflective tape mounted on the bottom of your shoes is very effective at signaling your presence to oncoming cars driving head-on in the same lane you're riding in. This is exactly the situation the profile pic demonstrates.
Can you help me understand these claims better? Moving things attract more attention (cognitively) than stationary things, but aren't more visible, right? The statement as written seems to be saying that moving your feet around shovels more light energy back from the reflector. Off axis reflectivity of the 3M SOLAS tape degrades quickly with angle (see the 3M data sheet you referenced), so applying it to a curved surface expands the range of angles over which the tape application is decently reflective. Why would this not be so? Finally, and most perplexing, how does the sole of your shoe angling more towards the ground, then more towards the sky, during a pedal stroke "help with respect to different entrance angles" in a meaningful way? Tipping of the reflector in that way seems very helpful in alerting your presence to someone shining a flashlight at your shoes from a tree or 2'nd story building directly in front of you. Or a person lying on the ground a few dozen feet directly in front of your path, again shining a flashlight directly at your shoes. The genuinely helpful thing would be to angle your feet, and thus the soles of your shoes, left to right over the pedal stroke to sweep a wider angle of effective reflectivity on the ground. Since it's difficult to angle your feet left to right during the pedal stroke, another way to achieve the same effect is to put the reflective tape on curved surfaces on the bottom of your shoes. As you have done, by coincidence.
Safety On Land And Sea rated reflective tape is available from many sources, with 3M being one of the more respected brands it appears (though from my brief bit of research I suspect Reflexite is better for this application). The statement quoted from 3M's marketing chaff, "utilize the principle of retroreflection and are comprised of an encapsulated lens optical design that provides high reflectivity over a wide range of entrance angles, whether dry or wet", seems accurate, but misleadingly simplistic. Retroreflectivity isn't a binary property, with something having perfect retroreflectivity or no retroreflectivity. While 3M SOLAS tape exhibits limited retroflective properties and it may exhibit those properties "over a wide range of entrance angles" compared to standard reflective tapes, its off-axis performance is dismal compared to a retroreflector with real optics (and a third dimension) and it's reflectivity degrades quickly with angle. I refer you to my original post in this thread and the carefully controlled (ha!) reflectivity tests I and a friend accidentally did in my livingroom. BTW, we were drinking a fine IPA from Highlands Brewing, Asheville, NC, at the time, in case anyone wants to carefully duplicate the test conditions.
As I said before, I'm onboard with reflective tape on the soles of your shoes being a good idea. Also on the top of your helmet and in the arm pits of your jersey. Any of these applications may or may not help visibility in a meaningful way, but none is likely to hurt so why not. My main point in this was only to caution folks that if they festoon their velocipede with reflective tape they should test the actual performance of those reflectors from a bunch of angles before heading out into the night believing they'll light up like Times Square if a car gets anywhere near. They may well blind drivers approaching from front/rear or broadside, but be virtually invisible from oblique angles. The worst possible night riding safety situation is when you ride as if you're extremely visible, but are in fact in stealth mode.
Be safe out there!
-Jack
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super slim
Zen MBB Master
With a car driver sitting between two 55 w headlights, ONCE the bike is in the light beams the bike will be very visible,
if a reasonable amount of tape is used!I use two long orange reflectors on the front wheel to keep the wheel in balance for 80 kph descents, as I think these reflectors are what car drivers see and associate with bike the most!
I now have reflective tyres, so I will take a photo tonight, and a steering lock so the front wheel spoke reflectors should be more visible!
The rear reflective Triangle supplied and enforced to use, by US bike tour operators, are VERY effective even in daylight!
Using DAYLIGHT lights flashing during the day are very effective, from-+15 degrees, if using a spot, and wide angle lenses(Dinnote, and especially Designshine!)
velocio
Austrian roadside steckerlfisch (fish on a stick)
Those orange/yellow reflective triangles are the shizzle. I never used one until I started riding recumbent and now would feel pretty uneasy out on the road without it on the back of my seat. Last year I bought two more and attach them to the T-cycles lowrider rack when I'm heading out at night. There's a pretty large reflective area on those things and they're very reasonably priced -- very highly recommended. Super Slim, are those triangles not common "down under"? It never occurred to me they might be a North American thing.
I've recently been casually shopping for a daytime front blinkie. Now that I'm late middle-aged I realize the invulnerability I owned in my 20's has completely eroded away with time. I now need protection from all kinds of things I never used to even think about -- like a grannie in a 3.5 ton SUV who can barely see over the dashboard crossing the center line of the roadway, rolling completely over me + Cruzbike and driving away believing the thud she heard was merely a bump in the road. I for one am desperately waiting for self-driving cars to take the wheel from distractable, irresponsible, road-ragey humans. Until then I think I should get a front blinkie.
-Jack
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super slim
Zen MBB Master
Mine is the only one in captivity "Down Under"!!!!!!
They make bikes VERY visible from behind, even at 400 m!
Dinnote daylight tail lights are visible 1 km away on a bright day, on a winding BC road!
I ride with TWO large diameter 76 mm (3") flat Mirrycle mirrors, so I can see a naughty driver behind me, AND only have ONE headphone on so I can hear the RV coming!!!
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