Vendetta 'mini skunkworks'

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
Maria Parker starts RAAM tomorrow from Oceanside. The Vendetta prepared for her was essentially developed in my workshop. I thought I'd share a picture of my workshop bikes as they are today. Some stuff is available already, some stuff is on the RAAM bike but not made as a product yet, some stuff might get onto a race bike in the next 12 months. I was going to fit Di2, but instead I told the RAAM team to take it as back up for RAAM and I'll fit it after that.

20130608_155312medium.jpg
 

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
To some extent I am

To some extent I am interested in what you are doing with the headrest rack as I am finding my Bachetta Brainbox (BB) has several issues:
  • The BB mounting pocket assumes a wider, flatter object inside of it than the padded Vendetta headrest.
  • The BB wide stabilizer panel (with buckles and straps does not work.
  • Because of the above the BB tends to move left and right, like a dog wagging their tail.
  • Looping the bottom forward strap around the headrest tubes helps control wagging a little but not satisfactorily.
  • Adding padding to the headrest to fine tune head position is defeated by putting the BB mounting pocket over the headrest. Either the added padding is compressed by the BB or the added padding makes the headrest too big to fit in the mount pocket.
  • Regardless of extra padding, the BB mounting pocket tends to compress the open cell foam such that the headrest becomes firm and pointy in a sense - defeating the ability for the soft top layer of padding to cup the head/neck.
That being said, the airbag for headrest padding adjustment intrigues me. The BB has quick release clips at the forward top edge that are used to clip to the wide fabric stabilizer panel. This doesn't really work for the Vendetta geometry but I have been thinking I could make a fabric pouch that uses these clips at the top and something else at the bottom to allow for customized padding amounts for the head/neck over the top of the BB mount pouch which is in turn over the usual headrest padding. Making the padding an airbag would allow for very fine tuning of headrest comfort and adjustment.

I think I can stabilize the side-to-side movement of the BB by mounting some tabs that extend out from the headrest tubes about where they exit from the frame plug. This could be combined with the "over the mount pouch" padding pocket to clip at the top and clip at the bottom mounting tabs - basically combining the idea of a stabilizer strap with room for more headrest padding for fine-tuning.

Alternatively, attach something to the seat but that requires bolting the seat down and I still want to explore making the frame tube interior easily accessible while still firmly securing the seat to the frame.

The metal rack looks purpose-built for water bottles. I prefer my Hydrapak water reservoirs. I assume you are focusing on creating a narrow rack within the silhouette of the existing Vendetta headrest for aero purposes but my head is wider than the headrest and much wider with a helmet so keeping it narrow results in no room for spare tube, pump, tools, etc from the looks of it.

The other thing that is important to me is the ability to quickly mount and remove whatever is hanging off the back of the headrest as I expect to do both ultra marathon racing as well as HPV racing. Most of the HPV racing is pretty short - especially compared to ultra distances and I don't want any extra gear on the bike at that point. Although I did discover this makes a good place to put your race numbers - I have been thinking of making a very light weight rig just to mount my race numbers on when not using my headrest bag.

The more I ride my V, the more I think about using your bullhorns as they look like they are where my hands seem to want to go.

The narrow upside down pistol grips or mini bull horns will maybe work with the forearm pads to help stabilize the extreme inboard hand positioning - holding my drop bars with my hands close in to the slider and handlebar clamp feels very twitchy and uncomfortable to me. What I would find objectionable however, is these things would be severely blocking my forward vision especially with my hands wrapped around them.

The air number bed , er, I mean seat looks promising but I wonder about getting it small, light, and durable.

One final comment about the Vendetta's headrest. I am finding I tend to be balancing on a point between two spherical surfaces instead of my head being cupped in a stable manner by the headrest. Especially with the rear adjustment strap/mechanism that I have on the back of my Giro Venti helmet. I am thinking about ditching the provided padding and mounting some sort of wide rectangular shape that clamps to the existing tubes. Perhaps even more than one. It should be easy to make a mount that lets the thing slide up and down to the desired position on the tubes and then tightened to the desired position. This would also allow the headrest tubes exposed to be used as quick release mounts for a bag/rack behind the headrest.

-Eric
 

charlesw

Member
Eric,
Checkout how I mounted


Eric,

Checkout how I mounted my Bent-Up Aerobag in this video: ?https://www.dropbox.com/s/826wkko57s...2014.49.45.mp4

I made two little internal frame bars out of flat stock 1" wide aluminum and then used electrical clamps (stainless steel band with rubber insert) to mount it to the headrest tubes.

I made a detailed post about this mounting about a year ago, but it doesn't show-up in the forum search. Maybe it got lost with the forum database issues a few months back.

Anyways, I am really happy with how that mounting solution worked-out. It was rock-solid, and to my mind light-weight enough (given how solid it was).

 

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
Hi Matt,
Yes I like your


Hi Matt,

Yes I like your mounting design, it looks very good to me. I had been looking at it before the post I made above. BTW, your original post is here but your video link above does not work.

http://cruzbike.com/mounting-aero-bag-vendetta#comment-16525

You must be a lot taller than I am as I have the headrest mounted as far in as it will go without trimming the top of the fiberglass seat.

I still want to try to devise a quick release mount but if I can't figure that out then I will do something similar to what you have done.


-Eric
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
The bottle cage mount is

The bottle cage mount is behind the rider's neck really, and that defines the width. Expect nice aero improvements, from 24 to 25 mph for example. That's how helpful it is to clean up some the turbulence in that area. You could put a water bag in it.

Perhaps mount a trapezoidal piece of 3/8 plywood on the vertical section of the headrest, and fit the brain box to that. Worked nicely on the bentup cycles bag I used for a while. You are right about mounting on the top of the headrest compressing the padding, that is a real problem, that padding is critical.

The air cushion seat back gives adjustable lumbar support, and isolates from high frequency road vibrations. Adjusting pressure in the seat, and upper/lower seat back, lets you move forward & more reclined on the seat if you like.

The air cushion on the headrest (as testified by yakmurph) does a nice job, we have this Maria Parker's RAAM bike.

I do have drawings of a cup shaped head support area. Use a pair of the plastic clamps provided and a sheet of shaped plastic. Fit and make the curve, then tighten the clamps. Put the bolts to the outside, so you can cup easily.

Maria elected for the Di2 equipment to go onto her bike with the bullhorn bars, and I think that will be the favourite bike for the whole event. It took a long while for us to get the fit right, but now she is convinced they are better.

 

mattwall

Member
seat suspension

looking at the airbag seat, I was wondering about suspension for the seat . On a DF bike both pedalling forces and road bump forces are vertical which means that suspension interferes with power application. On a Cruzbike pedalling forces are horizontal while the the road bump forces are vertical which should mean that suspension does not interfere with power application.
I was imagining two pairs of horizontal swing arms attaching the seat to the frame at the front and the back which would stop the seat moving back and forth while allowing vertical movement cushioned by a spring or elastomer. One pair of swing arms could be attached with a removable pin to allow the seat to give access to the frame internal cavity.
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
Yes Matt, that kind of thing

Yes Matt, that kind of thing would be possible as you are right, the pedalling action doesn't create a pogo effect. Have you had a look at the Silvio? It has rear suspension.
 

mattwall

Member
seat suspension

Hi John . I have a silvio 1.5 , but I would like a Vendetta with enough suspension to take the buzz out of a rough chip road. Seat suspension seems like a light weight way to achieve this.
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
Hi Matt, I don't have a

Hi Matt, I don't have a Vendetta with suspension, but the Silvio 2.0 has a more reclined position now.

The air cushion seat is intended to take out that course chip seal roughness on Vendetta. Quitely confident that it will do so.
 

KiwiGuy

Well-Known Member
John, I was wrong

Hi John

I sent you an email a few weeks ago to say that I didn't like either of the handle bar options for the Vendetta.

Looking at your photo in your original post, I have to say I was wrong. I like the look of the bullhorn set-up with the bar end curving in slightly to give a better wrist angle (rather than straight ahead). Pretty much the same wrist angle as I've currently got on my Volae Club, just positioned higher - a very natural feel.

I saw a photograph of Maria riding one of her bikes early in RAAM which seemed to have the same bullhorn set-up with Di2 bar end shifters. Very nice. Are the available bullhorns shaped in the same way? If not, will that become an option?

Also, I objected to the brake lever set-up on the bullhorn bars. But it a logical approach. Every flat bar bike I go by I check if I can live with that set-up. It seems like it would work much better than I originally thought.

Kind regards....
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
The bullhorn bars complete

The bullhorn bars complete with 10 bar end shifters for INTERNAL cable and brake levers are available now. The ones on Maria's bike and on my bike as pictured above have had the reach shortened by 30mm.

The bullhorn set up is the quickest setup we have devised thus far and Maria loved her version with the Di2 shifting.
 

KiwiGuy

Well-Known Member
Bullhorn bars - brake lever fix with new Ultegra Di2

The web is alive with the release of the 2014 Shimano Ultegra 6870 Di2 11 speed offering. The BikeRadar report is here - http://bit.ly/17HaAzh

What's interesting is that Shimano will offer TT brake levers (ST-6871) with built in shift buttons - basically the Ultegra version of these Dura-Ace levers - http://bit.ly/10yGlZg

I don't know what the braking is like with this type of lever, but the approach looks like it may solve John's dilemma regarding brake lever set-up on bullhorn bars.

Plus Ultegra will move to a maximum cog size of 32 teeth. So running 52/36 with an 11-speed 12-32 cassette looks it will be pretty much the go.

Can't wait...
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
This release will be

This release will be interesting.

The Dura-Ace Di2 Brifters have been runing about a $300 premium OTC. If Shimano could bring Ultregra Di2 in the price range of Dura-Ace Mechanicals they might get people to bite. Otherwise only the Pros and the Freds will be riding electrics any time soon. I do not need electric; I do not need electric; I do not need electric... I do not like blair... I do not need electric.

Good find sir.

Now we just need a braking configuration for hydralics on the bullhorns.
 

KiwiGuy

Well-Known Member
Hydraulic brakes

Hey Ratz

Thanks. We both need to go electric!
teeth_smile.gif


I'm with you on hydraulic brakes. I really like the look of the new Sram hydraulic rim brakes. Great review here - http://bit.ly/10AhpQW Maybe Shimano will react to that offering and come out with their own version sometime in the next year.

Another option is to use cables and run the TRP HyRd cable activated hydraulic disc brakes. Review here - http://bit.ly/1b8yiGI I have a strong liking for disc brakes. I've had a very good run with a BB7 disc on the rear of my Volae Club.

The only issue at the moment is that road disc frame and wheel offerings are going to 135mm drive wheel hubs, while the Vendetta is 130mm. I understand the cost issue that John faces - can't really afford to offer both. One option is that he could manufacture for 135mm and offer spacers for those who want to run 130mm hubs - as some df manufacturers are starting to do.

However, there is also an argument for sticking with 130mm hubs and going with hydraulic rim brakes on a bike like the Vendetta. I've recently seen that wheel manufacturers who test in low-speed wind tunnels are saying that disc brakes double the wheel drag.

There seems to be a lot of new product coming on that is making a reasonably significant advance in some way, and no doubt it will take a little while to settle down.

Kind regards...

 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Eric you really need a nice

Eric you really need a nice set of A23's in yellow from a nice custom shop.

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/custom-velocity-road-heels/

Just need John to tell us what the panatone yellow is on the bike so we can figure out if Orange, Green or black is the best complementary color for things like wheels. I am partial to Yellow,Black and White. :)
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
The SRAM hydraulic

The SRAM hydraulic brifters appear to have a narrow tall post. Mounted at the end of a bullhorn bar, they might be good to grab onto, not too wide.
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Invert the bullhorns with brifters

John:

That Brifters comment makes me curious.

I wonder what sort of arm geometry you would end up with (I'm no engineer ).....; If the Bullhorns were turned up side down for installation, and then cut off just past the curve in the bar; with Brifters installed at the end of the bar. Seems like you might get the same contour you have now with the brifter hood forming the end of the arm bars in place of the bar itself. I imagine the brifters might need some sort of anchor to keep them in place.

The best image I could find of the Bullhorns from the side was this one:

http://cruzbike.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/400x400/products/CB20100793-3.jpg

I am referring to the bend right where the tape ends in this photo.... Cut to bar off right where the brakes in this photo are clamped on and flip the bar over 180 on the y-axis from the riders perspective.

Perhaps this is something you have already tried in the lab and discarded?

 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
Yes, a pair of more

Yes, a pair of more convensional TT bars, flipped over with brifters on the end has been on one of my test bikes before. The body of the ultegra brifter was too bulky to get a good grip on it.
 
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