Hi everyone - I am based in Western Australia and am looking for Australian Cruz bike owners as I would love to have a chat about the bikes. I am new to the recumbent world (arrived here via a lumbar disc herniation which is severely impacting my DF cycling ability. I've tried sending messages via the local owners map but have not had much success - which may be due to my tech inability or the newness of this particular internet option. I have done extensive online research and read lots on the forum (you all seem like lovely people) but would love the chance to talk with someone relatively local. I am interested in S40 and V20 models as I am an ultra rider so I have also posted this question on the S40 forum - I hope that this doesn't go against any rules. I have had a look in person at a V20c based in Singapore so have seen the bike in real life but I have more questions and would love to chat if anyone has this model in Australia. Thank you everyone.
Any Australian V20 owners out there?
- Thread starter ste46
- Start date
I am in Sydney and have a V20 (2020 model??). I have it due to similar back issues as someone who previously did lots of road biking (and racing up to A grade). Happy to discuss further. Mine is setup for high efficiency at high speed. I am not really an ultra rider.... more up to 4 hours as fast I can go is what I like. My bike has a good setup for low CdA for me and as long there are not many long hills not much DF keeps up with it.
Two of us near Brisbane, I have a v20 other David has an S40 and Qbike.
I've tricked out my v20 rather too much for my current needs, but it's a lot of fun ..got the position pretty well set up and made a few custom fittings...I've retired from competition, coaching and officiating, so see my v20 ( I also have a bachetta) 'bent as an anti UCI rebellion...
I've tricked out my v20 rather too much for my current needs, but it's a lot of fun ..got the position pretty well set up and made a few custom fittings...I've retired from competition, coaching and officiating, so see my v20 ( I also have a bachetta) 'bent as an anti UCI rebellion...
It's very exciting to find some V20 riders here in Australia. Whilst I hope to be able to rehab my back to be able to ride my endurance road bike again I have become fascinated by the benefits offered by recumbents (especially the aerodynamic position) and the idea that you don't have to manage the pain/discomfort element quite so much on a bent once you have adapted your muscles/legs. I do appreciate that there is a huge learning curve though, as well as an muscular adaptation period. My interest is in riding Audax (randonneuring) as well as some ultras. I do have a sneaky desire to ride across Australia but fast/not touring mode. I have been known to ride for up to 16 hours for multiple days on events. So much of this kind of riding is managing saddle sores/neck and back pain - and yes I have had a very good bike fit and I do strength training 3 times a week. It is a huge investment though both in $ and in time to get adapted to a V20. However.... I probably have the same questions that everyone has and will attempt to list them below. I also realise that the standard advice is to start with a S40 first but I don't have the cash and whilst the S40 ticks quite a lot of boxes I am concerned about recumbutt with the amount of hours that I potentially want to ride. I can't make the S40 saddle angle lower but you can alter the V20 saddle position (I was particularly taken with Brian Lafolley's ingenious adaptation for raising the seat for going uphill/stopping). Having sat on a stationary V20 I get why having a variable seat position might be helpful. So questions.
1. Hills - sorry, everyone asks this. My understanding is that you need to sit up a bit requiring good core strength and that you can utilise pulling on the handle bars to help you. I know that the front end on a V20 is where all the weight is. Its not super hilly where I am in Perth but there are a few short hills. Its just that the V20 is so very different to a DF bike that all my cycling friends look at it and go 'that will be rubbish uphill' I just need some more reassurance on this - why is the cruzbike set up (MBB) better for hills than something like the Slyway Ultra bike (allowing for Cruzbike bias because we are on the Cruzbike forum)? Why did you all go down the Cruzbike route - did you try other bents first? like sixty-six's Bachetta?
2. Tyre size - I use 35mm tyres on my endurance road bike - mainly because when you are out on more rural remote roads and a road train or caravan goes past it can be useful/life saving to divert onto the gravel shoulder. These gravel shoulders are pea gravel and often cambered and I suspect it might not be fun on a V20! 35mm tyre size also helps with comfort over longer distances. I've measured the front and rear fork on the V20 and reckon you can fit a 35mm tyre no problem at the back but the front is going to be tight unless you potentially drop a wheel size. I can see a post on this forum from a few days ago that reckons 35mm is possible if a bit tight/depends on your rims.
3. Gear/bags for multi day riding - I have watched a lot of Youtube videos by Tor Hovland (including the ones where he rode with Larry the length of Sweden) and I can see that they managed to get some bags etc. onto the frame. For the riding I do I need to be able to carry 4 litres of water to manage the 180 km between supply points but if I can go faster - maybe I wont need as much water! I also need to carry some tools and spares and a bivvy and snack food. If you have any re-assurance you can give me on this I'd be happy to hear it. I'm very lightweight in my additional gear.
4. I use a dynamo to power my lights/charge power bank as I can ride a lot at night so presume that can just go on the rear wheel?
5. Am I totally foolish to contemplate a V20 as my first bent? I know others have asked this question and the response is mixed. I have lots of time to learn to ride it - I can use a wedge to raise the seat angle until I get used to the different riding style. My core is strong after all the rehab I have been doing for my back but.... it is so scary to outlay all that cash not knowing if I can adapt to the different riding style.
6. I am curious as to what drove others to ride a bent bike - I'm assuming a lot of us come here due to back issues (I had to have a c4/c5/c6 fusion two years ago after an accident and then on New Years Eve managed to herniate 4 lumbar discs by stretching of all things. My back is considerably better now and I am back on my DF bike and training again but the recumbent idea wont go away. I am particularly attracted to the aerodynamic and potential comfort benefits.
7. Australia specific question - import tax on buying the bike/frame - as far as I can work out there is a fairly hefty import tax on top of GST etc. on a bike that you buy overseas. I have a partner that does occasionally go to US for work and I am trying to persuade them to take a large suitcase with them next time...... Did the Australian owners buy direct from US and import into Australia? I'd be looking at buying a frameset and building due to having lots of the parts already (between us I think we have 9 bikes at home) and we are both mechanically minded.
If you have made it this far then thanks - I look foward to reading responses. I love sixy sixes anti UCI rebellion!!!
1. Hills - sorry, everyone asks this. My understanding is that you need to sit up a bit requiring good core strength and that you can utilise pulling on the handle bars to help you. I know that the front end on a V20 is where all the weight is. Its not super hilly where I am in Perth but there are a few short hills. Its just that the V20 is so very different to a DF bike that all my cycling friends look at it and go 'that will be rubbish uphill' I just need some more reassurance on this - why is the cruzbike set up (MBB) better for hills than something like the Slyway Ultra bike (allowing for Cruzbike bias because we are on the Cruzbike forum)? Why did you all go down the Cruzbike route - did you try other bents first? like sixty-six's Bachetta?
2. Tyre size - I use 35mm tyres on my endurance road bike - mainly because when you are out on more rural remote roads and a road train or caravan goes past it can be useful/life saving to divert onto the gravel shoulder. These gravel shoulders are pea gravel and often cambered and I suspect it might not be fun on a V20! 35mm tyre size also helps with comfort over longer distances. I've measured the front and rear fork on the V20 and reckon you can fit a 35mm tyre no problem at the back but the front is going to be tight unless you potentially drop a wheel size. I can see a post on this forum from a few days ago that reckons 35mm is possible if a bit tight/depends on your rims.
3. Gear/bags for multi day riding - I have watched a lot of Youtube videos by Tor Hovland (including the ones where he rode with Larry the length of Sweden) and I can see that they managed to get some bags etc. onto the frame. For the riding I do I need to be able to carry 4 litres of water to manage the 180 km between supply points but if I can go faster - maybe I wont need as much water! I also need to carry some tools and spares and a bivvy and snack food. If you have any re-assurance you can give me on this I'd be happy to hear it. I'm very lightweight in my additional gear.
4. I use a dynamo to power my lights/charge power bank as I can ride a lot at night so presume that can just go on the rear wheel?
5. Am I totally foolish to contemplate a V20 as my first bent? I know others have asked this question and the response is mixed. I have lots of time to learn to ride it - I can use a wedge to raise the seat angle until I get used to the different riding style. My core is strong after all the rehab I have been doing for my back but.... it is so scary to outlay all that cash not knowing if I can adapt to the different riding style.
6. I am curious as to what drove others to ride a bent bike - I'm assuming a lot of us come here due to back issues (I had to have a c4/c5/c6 fusion two years ago after an accident and then on New Years Eve managed to herniate 4 lumbar discs by stretching of all things. My back is considerably better now and I am back on my DF bike and training again but the recumbent idea wont go away. I am particularly attracted to the aerodynamic and potential comfort benefits.
7. Australia specific question - import tax on buying the bike/frame - as far as I can work out there is a fairly hefty import tax on top of GST etc. on a bike that you buy overseas. I have a partner that does occasionally go to US for work and I am trying to persuade them to take a large suitcase with them next time...... Did the Australian owners buy direct from US and import into Australia? I'd be looking at buying a frameset and building due to having lots of the parts already (between us I think we have 9 bikes at home) and we are both mechanically minded.
If you have made it this far then thanks - I look foward to reading responses. I love sixy sixes anti UCI rebellion!!!
One more question (I knew there was one more). My partner is really concerned about the visibility aspect, given how crazy, agressive Aussie drivers can be towards cyclists. I can't see that you are that much lower on a V20 (unlike some of the bent trikes). In your experience does the novelty factor mean you get treated a bit better? Do you use flags? I currently ride my DF in a fluoro vest, have a fluoro sun protective buff and have bits of reflective tape all over my endurance road bike, helmet and shoes!
I live in a hilly area. I live at about 100m above sea level and the first 1.5 km of almost every ride is climbing failry steep to about 200m above sea level. I think my idea of climbing is difference to what most people around here think. I still ride DF but not on long rides as my back can't take it (even with lots of core work). The experience of riding DF out of my house is completely different to the V20. The DF is leisurely. An effort of around 200-250W with a couple of standing pinchs or around 350W in about 7 minutes. The V20 is near max effort just to get out and the pinchs are full effort pulling myself forward (and if the road is wet with wheel slip) in about 8 minutes. The V20 has 52/36 and 11-32. The DF has same fron and 11-28 rear. I am convinced most people commenting on the V20 as a climbers bike are talking about either short hills or lower gradients than me. There is no way I can get near my DF climbing performance on my V20...... but once the gradient lower on rolling hills and flats, the tables turn. The V20 is so much faster once you can keep you momentum going. rolling hills where you punch some power to keep the speed over the hills are great. Flat roads are great..... but I really hate steep climbing on it. Also long climbs at say 4-8% are much tougher as you have to stay in the same position and can't move around to move the muscle groups around.
I can't comment on tyres size. I use GPS5K-TL in 25mm on deep carbon aero wheels.
I can't comment much on bags. I have a home made carbon tail box that fits a fair bit. I have a 1.5L bladded in it, and heaps of space for other stuff. (https://forum.cruzbike.com/threads/adrians-v20-tail-box.14393/)
I learned recumbent on my V20. I am reasonably coordinated with balance sports. But I purchased my V20 from someone who bought it new and failed to Gel with it and sold it in frustration. It took me a couple weeks of daily practice in my street before venturing onto close bike path for a couple rides before real roads. I got more stable for a few months before I considered myself a master. No modified seats or anything for me. It can be done but be patient, and some less coordinate riders may be unable to do it.
For me it was all about the back pain. I appreciate the speed of the bike and enjoy giving it all it has (I have done an average of >45kph on an outdoor velodrome for 50kms, and road rides up to 160km at close to 40kph), but it really enables me to ride more than about an hour without severe back pain... as long as I choose my routes to minimise hills. I still prefer the experience of riding my DF through the hills, but my back limits me in that respect. I prefer the anonymous experience of riding a DF in an area where lots of people are riding DFs. The V20 attracts a lot of attention which is not what I am about. I have actually not ridden my V20 in a while and just commuting to work on my DF which is much better for dodging cars in the rat race and jumping gutters and through bollards etc.
I always ride with a Garmin Varia radar and bright light at full bright flash. I don't use a flag. It seems everyone sees me as most of them give me a beep as they pass me. I would say they are more positive towards me than when I am on the DF... but they certainly notice you. You are a fair bit lower than a DF. I find my head is about level with a DF riders butt, and that is the highest point for me on the V20. I have stock seat and head rest, which is probably the lowest setup people use.
I can't comment on tyres size. I use GPS5K-TL in 25mm on deep carbon aero wheels.
I can't comment much on bags. I have a home made carbon tail box that fits a fair bit. I have a 1.5L bladded in it, and heaps of space for other stuff. (https://forum.cruzbike.com/threads/adrians-v20-tail-box.14393/)
I learned recumbent on my V20. I am reasonably coordinated with balance sports. But I purchased my V20 from someone who bought it new and failed to Gel with it and sold it in frustration. It took me a couple weeks of daily practice in my street before venturing onto close bike path for a couple rides before real roads. I got more stable for a few months before I considered myself a master. No modified seats or anything for me. It can be done but be patient, and some less coordinate riders may be unable to do it.
For me it was all about the back pain. I appreciate the speed of the bike and enjoy giving it all it has (I have done an average of >45kph on an outdoor velodrome for 50kms, and road rides up to 160km at close to 40kph), but it really enables me to ride more than about an hour without severe back pain... as long as I choose my routes to minimise hills. I still prefer the experience of riding my DF through the hills, but my back limits me in that respect. I prefer the anonymous experience of riding a DF in an area where lots of people are riding DFs. The V20 attracts a lot of attention which is not what I am about. I have actually not ridden my V20 in a while and just commuting to work on my DF which is much better for dodging cars in the rat race and jumping gutters and through bollards etc.
I always ride with a Garmin Varia radar and bright light at full bright flash. I don't use a flag. It seems everyone sees me as most of them give me a beep as they pass me. I would say they are more positive towards me than when I am on the DF... but they certainly notice you. You are a fair bit lower than a DF. I find my head is about level with a DF riders butt, and that is the highest point for me on the V20. I have stock seat and head rest, which is probably the lowest setup people use.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Assuming you take to the MBB format, especially on a V20, and there aren't any physical limitations in riding it, I think you will grow to love it. For long distance touring it is a very heavy puncher IMO, especially on the flattish stuff. Not to take anything away from its hill climbing ability, which it can climb, but some people dismiss it for what is not its forte. Kinda like those who say Ferraris or Lamborghinis suck because they are not as easy to parallel park as a Prius.
As a first recumbent, making the jump straight into a V20 is doable. I made the switch after almost 2 straight years in the TT position so my brain took a bit longer to rewire the balance than most people, so I was weaving all over the place for about 2 weeks before being able to keep it upright reliably. A friend made two trips across a small parking lot. The first was Flintstoning, and the 2nd one was with his feet on pedals.
1. Hills - Some people assume that once a recumbent hits a hill then it is game over, which is not the case at all. Assuming you have legs to get up hills on a road bike already you should be able to get up them on a V20 as well. It might take a bit longer depending on how steep they are, but you'll surely be able to make up for lost time on the descents and flats. A member crunched the relevant numbers between me on my road bike and me on my V20, and came up with the approximate break-even points with my then 250 watt FTP. I attribute this more to a weight issue (16kg vs 8kg bike weights) than anything else but I was able to get my V20 FTP up to 257, whereas my best ever on a road bike was only 247. This kind of casts doubt (at least in my case) that riders are going to take a hit on the watts when making the switch.
Steeper favored the road bike due mostly to the weight, and favored the V20 for anything flatter or descending.
250 watts on both = speeds were the same at about 2.5% grade.
175 watts on both = speeds were the same at about 2% grade.
125 watts on both = speeds were the same at about 1.5% grade.
Based on those numbers I guestimated that for the speeds to be the same at about a 3% grade I would need about 300 watts, maybe 325 to not get dropped. Maybe not very useful for randonneuring, but it's a starting point.
3. Gear/bags/hydration. I use a 3L Osprey hydration bag inside a North Face 6L joggers bag worn backwards on my chest with a drink tube. On hot days I add varying amounts of ice to keep me cool, and add a powdered mix (like Gatorade) to taste.
Hands free drinking, excellent for cooling with a lot of ice, has a little spare room for cell phone, chapstick, snacks and easy to access without stopping.
As for why I switched, the 2 main reasons are speed and comfort. Neck pain had me hating to get on my upright bikes, and the butt/back/hand pain surely made the choice much easier. On my best day I could handle 4 hours on it before discomfort forced me to take breaks even though my legs still had plenty of life in them. Since getting my V20 I have numerous days with 7+ hours nonstop, and the only real reason I got off when I did was boredom and I ran out of hydration/food. I was just starting to get recumbutt near the end, but it certainly wasnt discomfort that caused me to get off.
As a first recumbent, making the jump straight into a V20 is doable. I made the switch after almost 2 straight years in the TT position so my brain took a bit longer to rewire the balance than most people, so I was weaving all over the place for about 2 weeks before being able to keep it upright reliably. A friend made two trips across a small parking lot. The first was Flintstoning, and the 2nd one was with his feet on pedals.
1. Hills - Some people assume that once a recumbent hits a hill then it is game over, which is not the case at all. Assuming you have legs to get up hills on a road bike already you should be able to get up them on a V20 as well. It might take a bit longer depending on how steep they are, but you'll surely be able to make up for lost time on the descents and flats. A member crunched the relevant numbers between me on my road bike and me on my V20, and came up with the approximate break-even points with my then 250 watt FTP. I attribute this more to a weight issue (16kg vs 8kg bike weights) than anything else but I was able to get my V20 FTP up to 257, whereas my best ever on a road bike was only 247. This kind of casts doubt (at least in my case) that riders are going to take a hit on the watts when making the switch.
Steeper favored the road bike due mostly to the weight, and favored the V20 for anything flatter or descending.
250 watts on both = speeds were the same at about 2.5% grade.
175 watts on both = speeds were the same at about 2% grade.
125 watts on both = speeds were the same at about 1.5% grade.
Based on those numbers I guestimated that for the speeds to be the same at about a 3% grade I would need about 300 watts, maybe 325 to not get dropped. Maybe not very useful for randonneuring, but it's a starting point.
3. Gear/bags/hydration. I use a 3L Osprey hydration bag inside a North Face 6L joggers bag worn backwards on my chest with a drink tube. On hot days I add varying amounts of ice to keep me cool, and add a powdered mix (like Gatorade) to taste.
Hands free drinking, excellent for cooling with a lot of ice, has a little spare room for cell phone, chapstick, snacks and easy to access without stopping.
As for why I switched, the 2 main reasons are speed and comfort. Neck pain had me hating to get on my upright bikes, and the butt/back/hand pain surely made the choice much easier. On my best day I could handle 4 hours on it before discomfort forced me to take breaks even though my legs still had plenty of life in them. Since getting my V20 I have numerous days with 7+ hours nonstop, and the only real reason I got off when I did was boredom and I ran out of hydration/food. I was just starting to get recumbutt near the end, but it certainly wasnt discomfort that caused me to get off.
Thank you for your lengthy and considered response - I appreciate it. I'm sorry that your back is still giving you issues (I'm a bit anxious that I will be the same but am glad there are other options eg. cruzbikes that will enable me to keep riding). Sore backs suck big time.
My back is a 12 year thing now. It is nothing that a surgeon would be willing to do surgery on and should not in scans be causing be the issues I get. I must have been to several dozen Physios/Chiros/Osteos and other and follow there protocols to the letter with no real benefit. It is slowly getting worse and limiting my cycling more and more. I can really only ride the DF for an hour now and even then I will take 5 minutes to straighten my lower back out so I can walk properly again. Maybe one day it will get bad enough that a scan give a surgeon something to work on! In the meantime, the V20 does not cause me the same back issues (but is harder on my knees and hips). I should note that the V20 need to pull yourself forward on really steep stuff is not great on the back but only really needed at >10% for me and my gearing.
The V20 is a great bike, but is pretty solid in the camp of a no compromise fast bike. I would compare it to a TT DF bike. Visibility of what is going on around you is limited (need to be attentive to mirrors), and manourverability in tighter paths is difficult. Riding over gutters etc normally requires dismounting. If any of that bothers you, probably a less serious recumbent might be more to your preference. I personally might enjoy having a less serious recumbent so I have the back benefits in a package that is more friendly to general use. But I would not give up the V20 for when I want to go fast.
The V20 is a great bike, but is pretty solid in the camp of a no compromise fast bike. I would compare it to a TT DF bike. Visibility of what is going on around you is limited (need to be attentive to mirrors), and manourverability in tighter paths is difficult. Riding over gutters etc normally requires dismounting. If any of that bothers you, probably a less serious recumbent might be more to your preference. I personally might enjoy having a less serious recumbent so I have the back benefits in a package that is more friendly to general use. But I would not give up the V20 for when I want to go fast.
I've actually watched your Youtube videos - I'm so grate
I've just realised that I have watched your Youtube videos! thanks for taking the time to put them out there - Its great to be able to watch your ride
Having sat on a V20 I totally get the effort of pulling yourself forward and the need to dismount when riding over gutters. Its really hard to try and work out which model offers the least compromises for the kind of riding I want to do. If I could afford to buy two different models that would solve the problem but that unfortunately is not going to happen unless I win lotto. I already ride with a mirror on my endurance road bike due to inability to turn my neck properly due to cervical spinal fusion. I also use a radar. I can see from looking through the forum that shorter cranks seem to be the way to go to avoid knee issues.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Thanks Ste46. I'm definitely not a good Youtuber, but if people can gather that the V20 is a fast bike even on my relatively low power then that is about all I can hope for. If some of my tips about my setup help other people with theirs then that is a bonus.
