2021 Q45 Seat Angle
- Thread starter Mrnelson
- Start date
rhythmtime
New Member
My seat pan is in the back position, so I removed the long bracket that attached between the upper seat bracket and the support bar. I used a few washers to fill in the gap where the quick release attaches to the support bar. Seems solid and it’s a more comfortable lean angle for me. I’m 5’11” for comparison.
pherreshoff
Member
I asked Robert about this and he replied that the bend angle of the seat tube was increased on this iteration of the q45 because of customer feedback but that the previous seat tube has the same diameter and so would fit the new q 45. It wasn't clear to me whether there were more of those seat tubes in stock.
I placed the seat pan in the forward position using the higher brackets. It seems like the line of 7 holes in the bracket coming from the seat tube should be more or less perpendicular to the seat back angle to prevent rotation of the bracket. When I do this, the smallest angle to horizontal that I can make the seat back is about 55 degrees (using the 6th hole from the back - the one closest to the cylinder over which the seat back bracket hooks). I can achieve a 45 degree angle by raising the seat post and rotating the cylinder end of the bracket down until it rests against the seat post and the line of holes makes roughly a 50 degree angle with the horizontal. This leaves a little over 2" of the seat post inserted into the frame which according to Robert should be enough. (He says that the tube should be inserted past the end of the slot in the back of the frame which is there to allow the frame to grip the seat post with the quick release). (I like the seat back angle on my old Quest which is about 40 degrees, but I don't yet know what will be best for me on the q45. - The 45 agree angle seems like it may be comfortable for me). I thought about attaching the seat back directly to the seat post) not using the long (7 holed) bracket but was afraid that would result in forces perpendicular to the quick release skewer (which is designed to take tensional forces and not shear forces).
I placed the seat pan in the forward position using the higher brackets. It seems like the line of 7 holes in the bracket coming from the seat tube should be more or less perpendicular to the seat back angle to prevent rotation of the bracket. When I do this, the smallest angle to horizontal that I can make the seat back is about 55 degrees (using the 6th hole from the back - the one closest to the cylinder over which the seat back bracket hooks). I can achieve a 45 degree angle by raising the seat post and rotating the cylinder end of the bracket down until it rests against the seat post and the line of holes makes roughly a 50 degree angle with the horizontal. This leaves a little over 2" of the seat post inserted into the frame which according to Robert should be enough. (He says that the tube should be inserted past the end of the slot in the back of the frame which is there to allow the frame to grip the seat post with the quick release). (I like the seat back angle on my old Quest which is about 40 degrees, but I don't yet know what will be best for me on the q45. - The 45 agree angle seems like it may be comfortable for me). I thought about attaching the seat back directly to the seat post) not using the long (7 holed) bracket but was afraid that would result in forces perpendicular to the quick release skewer (which is designed to take tensional forces and not shear forces).
rhythmtime
New Member
In the method I described above I used washers to fill in the extra space created when the long bracket was removed. Therefore, the quick release is still tight and under tension just like when using the bracket. The forces are the same.
Thanks for the replies. It does seem like the 30 degree advertised seat angle is not possible - as far as I can tell, not even close! - I'm emailing them about it.
rfneep
Well-Known Member
Rotating the post does not work on this iteration. It looks like the upper part of the seat post has been lengthened from past iterations. As such, when you rotate it, it extends unacceptably close to the rear tire. Without rotating, it moves the attachment point closer to the seat and thereby limits the recline angle. It does, however, easily support the more upright seat angles that I suspect many/most users want.
This change in the seat post design can be problematic in that it both limits the seat angle more, and considerably complicates attaching a carbon seat like the Thorseat. I have mounted a Volae carbon seat to my new Q45, but so far get at most a 36-37 degree recline with the quickie setup I have.
I've already given up on that and have gone about looking for a replacement seat post. Cruzbike does not have any spares from older models. There is at least an alternative: you could make a simple adapter plate to move the hole for the skewer closer to the back of the seat. This is what I did for adapting a carbon seat to the older Q559 and it worked well. Another alternative is simply attaching directly to the seat bracket, as discussed above. Overall, these just get you a few degrees but that may be enough.
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Hey all - indeed the angle for the seat tube in this run was increased - perhaps a bit too much - but the U shaped piece can be removed to get more recline. I will be working on sourcing a set of spacers to include/send out that will fill that gap when the U shaped tube is removed to get more recline.
We had near universal feedback the last two runs to make the seat more vertical as stock as people would call/email me that is wasn't upright enough... somewhere there is a middle ground haha.
In the interim other solutions are in mind and I will be working on those (think a simple modular/adjustable version as opposed to a bent tube)
Robert
We had near universal feedback the last two runs to make the seat more vertical as stock as people would call/email me that is wasn't upright enough... somewhere there is a middle ground haha.
In the interim other solutions are in mind and I will be working on those (think a simple modular/adjustable version as opposed to a bent tube)
Robert
Thanks!
pherreshoff
Member
Sounds good. Robert - you have probably already thought about this, but the spacers should be designed so that they work in conjunction with the upper rear rack attachment.
Tortue
Active Member
The center matching holes that were included on my seat pan were at least 3/32" off center. I wound up drilling my own set of holes.
My method - Skewer the brackets on and find one set of existing hole that you want to use. Bolt those in, mark the new hole positions on the pan through the other bracket, remove the pan and drill the other set.
BTW, I did some creative mallet work to make all of the brackets fit better.
My method - Skewer the brackets on and find one set of existing hole that you want to use. Bolt those in, mark the new hole positions on the pan through the other bracket, remove the pan and drill the other set.
BTW, I did some creative mallet work to make all of the brackets fit better.
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It seems there’s no way to get even close to a 30° seat angle with the current 2021 Q45 setup. It’s more like 52°-77°, (not the 30°-53° advertised) if you use the seat setup the way you’re supposed to.
I’ve measured each and every possible configuration. You could argue some of the figures, but they’re not too far off. Those results are at the end of this post.
I was going nuts trying to figure out how to get a more reclined seat angle, and had asked Cruzbike last Wednesday how to do it or whether it was outdated information from the previous iteration. (Still haven’t heard back.) I had tried every possible seat setup with the material I had (my bike was sent out missing one of the seat mount brackets, so I thought that might be the discrepancy). I hadn’t seen anything on the forum yet, so I hoped I just didn’t understand something obvious. I couldn't get to it over the weekend, and I thought I’d look at the forum again today, and I guess I wasn’t being so dumb.
Robert / Cruzbike- Thank you for looking into sending out some spacers to use for just ditching the U-bracket as I had asked you about, but that doesn’t get things to spec and actually won’t help much. You can only get a 45° seat angle that way, with the seat mounted forward. You can get a 42° angle if you use the upper seat bracket mounting holes. You can get a slightly better angle (40-41°) using the bracket in the lower mounting position by using the second hole from the attachment end and making the bracket ends point up so the ends are parallel to the seat back. You can at best (by not using the bracket) get a 52° angle with the seat mounted to the rear (and you can’t use the bracket from the upper mount because the seat post isn’t long enough).
A right solution is fairly simple, and I bet your profit margins are quite enough to do it:
Send out two seat posts with each bike, one that allows for a more reclined angle, and one that is mostly more upright (or just make which seat post you get an option, and accurately describe each one). Especially if you’ve already designed one that allows for a more reclined angle. Let people choose easily, and don’t waste much time messing with it. And then change your marketing/bike description to something that’s accurate.
But that doesn’t solve MY problem. If you have the old seat posts in stock, then please send me one. If you don’t have any left in stock, then scurry down to a local machine shop (don’t bother with Taiwan unless they can do it faster) with your design and make up 20 of them (you don’t have to make 1000’s) and send them to those of us who want and paid for the capabilities you said that the bike had. Cruzbike can take responsibility for the mess-up, eat a few dollars and fix it. THEN SEND ME ONE SOON.
Because I paid a lot for that 30° possibility - it’s a big reason I upgraded from my 12 year old SofRider. I believed your statement describing the bike’s technical detail, especially since as a company you’ve been so focused on technical details. I’m still in my 100 mile tryout period, and I want to try out what I want to try out - and I can’t.
Here’s the angle info for those of you similarly obsessed:
Procedural notes:
I measured the seat back recline using an inclinometer app which is accurate to .2° (I’d done all the measurements at first with a tape measure and arcsin, until I thought to look for an app - the measures are pretty close, though the app is more handy. For others also still thinking in the stone ages, the app was Clinometer+Bubble Level). I measured the angle from the back of the seat on a line from mid-back (just under the seat post attachment bracket) to the base in order to remove the lumbar curve and get a good approximation of whole seat recline. With all positions (except as noted) I kept at least 2” of the seat post in the tube.
I rounded the measures to the closest degree, since there’s still some fiddly in them. There’s about a consistent -3° difference between the measures shown and when measuring with the seat pad in place (that is, a slightly more reclined angle measurement with the pad) but there’s a +/- 5° variation in that depending on how you place the seat pad and slight differences in measuring position. And, FWIW, there’ seems to be about a -10° difference between several of these measures and the angle of my sternum when seated on the bike. There’s not an appreciable difference in seat back recline no matter which seat pan bracket configuration you choose - it seems to just change how open/closed your seating position is.
OK,Finally :
Up = ends of bracket pointing up as much as possible, while keeping seatpost safely in tube
Down = ends of bracket pointing down as much as possible, while keeping seatpost safely in tube
90° = seat bracket perpendicular to seat back
Hole: 1= closest to seat back mount
n/a not available - seat post comes out of tube too far
FRONT Mount of Seat pan, Using LOWER Bracket attachment holes -
Hole: Down / 90° / Up
0) 45 ( no bracket used)
1) 45 51 44
2) 46 54 41
3) 47 57 n/a
4) 61 60 n/a
5) 63 63 n/a
6) 64 65 n/a
FRONT Mount of Seat pan, Using UPPER Bracket attachment holes
Hole: Down / 90° / Up
0) 42.5 no bracket used - about 1 1/4” of seat post in tube (a bit dicey)
1) 43 47 n/a
2) 44 50 n/a
3-6) not safe
REAR Mount of Seat pan, using LOWER Bracket attachment holes
Hole: Down / 90° / Up
0) 53 no bracket used
1) 55 n/a n/a
2) 54 60 n/a (about 45° down, 90° n/a)
3) 57 64 n/a
4) 60 67 n/a
5) 62 71 n/a
6) 68 75 n/a
REAR Mount of Seat pan using UPPER bracket attachment holes
Not possible, seat tube not long enough
Be Happy!
I’ve measured each and every possible configuration. You could argue some of the figures, but they’re not too far off. Those results are at the end of this post.
I was going nuts trying to figure out how to get a more reclined seat angle, and had asked Cruzbike last Wednesday how to do it or whether it was outdated information from the previous iteration. (Still haven’t heard back.) I had tried every possible seat setup with the material I had (my bike was sent out missing one of the seat mount brackets, so I thought that might be the discrepancy). I hadn’t seen anything on the forum yet, so I hoped I just didn’t understand something obvious. I couldn't get to it over the weekend, and I thought I’d look at the forum again today, and I guess I wasn’t being so dumb.
Robert / Cruzbike- Thank you for looking into sending out some spacers to use for just ditching the U-bracket as I had asked you about, but that doesn’t get things to spec and actually won’t help much. You can only get a 45° seat angle that way, with the seat mounted forward. You can get a 42° angle if you use the upper seat bracket mounting holes. You can get a slightly better angle (40-41°) using the bracket in the lower mounting position by using the second hole from the attachment end and making the bracket ends point up so the ends are parallel to the seat back. You can at best (by not using the bracket) get a 52° angle with the seat mounted to the rear (and you can’t use the bracket from the upper mount because the seat post isn’t long enough).
A right solution is fairly simple, and I bet your profit margins are quite enough to do it:
Send out two seat posts with each bike, one that allows for a more reclined angle, and one that is mostly more upright (or just make which seat post you get an option, and accurately describe each one). Especially if you’ve already designed one that allows for a more reclined angle. Let people choose easily, and don’t waste much time messing with it. And then change your marketing/bike description to something that’s accurate.
But that doesn’t solve MY problem. If you have the old seat posts in stock, then please send me one. If you don’t have any left in stock, then scurry down to a local machine shop (don’t bother with Taiwan unless they can do it faster) with your design and make up 20 of them (you don’t have to make 1000’s) and send them to those of us who want and paid for the capabilities you said that the bike had. Cruzbike can take responsibility for the mess-up, eat a few dollars and fix it. THEN SEND ME ONE SOON.
Because I paid a lot for that 30° possibility - it’s a big reason I upgraded from my 12 year old SofRider. I believed your statement describing the bike’s technical detail, especially since as a company you’ve been so focused on technical details. I’m still in my 100 mile tryout period, and I want to try out what I want to try out - and I can’t.
Here’s the angle info for those of you similarly obsessed:
Procedural notes:
I measured the seat back recline using an inclinometer app which is accurate to .2° (I’d done all the measurements at first with a tape measure and arcsin, until I thought to look for an app - the measures are pretty close, though the app is more handy. For others also still thinking in the stone ages, the app was Clinometer+Bubble Level). I measured the angle from the back of the seat on a line from mid-back (just under the seat post attachment bracket) to the base in order to remove the lumbar curve and get a good approximation of whole seat recline. With all positions (except as noted) I kept at least 2” of the seat post in the tube.
I rounded the measures to the closest degree, since there’s still some fiddly in them. There’s about a consistent -3° difference between the measures shown and when measuring with the seat pad in place (that is, a slightly more reclined angle measurement with the pad) but there’s a +/- 5° variation in that depending on how you place the seat pad and slight differences in measuring position. And, FWIW, there’ seems to be about a -10° difference between several of these measures and the angle of my sternum when seated on the bike. There’s not an appreciable difference in seat back recline no matter which seat pan bracket configuration you choose - it seems to just change how open/closed your seating position is.
OK,Finally :
Up = ends of bracket pointing up as much as possible, while keeping seatpost safely in tube
Down = ends of bracket pointing down as much as possible, while keeping seatpost safely in tube
90° = seat bracket perpendicular to seat back
Hole: 1= closest to seat back mount
n/a not available - seat post comes out of tube too far
FRONT Mount of Seat pan, Using LOWER Bracket attachment holes -
Hole: Down / 90° / Up
0) 45 ( no bracket used)
1) 45 51 44
2) 46 54 41
3) 47 57 n/a
4) 61 60 n/a
5) 63 63 n/a
6) 64 65 n/a
FRONT Mount of Seat pan, Using UPPER Bracket attachment holes
Hole: Down / 90° / Up
0) 42.5 no bracket used - about 1 1/4” of seat post in tube (a bit dicey)
1) 43 47 n/a
2) 44 50 n/a
3-6) not safe
REAR Mount of Seat pan, using LOWER Bracket attachment holes
Hole: Down / 90° / Up
0) 53 no bracket used
1) 55 n/a n/a
2) 54 60 n/a (about 45° down, 90° n/a)
3) 57 64 n/a
4) 60 67 n/a
5) 62 71 n/a
6) 68 75 n/a
REAR Mount of Seat pan using UPPER bracket attachment holes
Not possible, seat tube not long enough
Be Happy!
Hey all,
Let me adjust the seat angle issue and let you all know what we are going to do:
The last few production seat tubes had a top section of roughly 75mm and a bend of 39 degrees.
Near universal feedback on the Q45 for the last 2 years was this: people wanted a more upright seat and many were running it in the most upright position.
Fast forward to 2021 - the angle of the bend is 47 degrees and moved lower on the tube - making the top section roughly 128mm long. The result is a more upright seat obviously - but - not enough recline. The result of the change has put the mounting point much further forward than necessary.
So the pendulum swung a bit too far. Also the specs on the website were not accurate as a result as they reflected the older Q45. Those have been pulled for now. Personally I am not a fan of putting that type of information on the site, but thats just me.
Solution:
We do not have - currently - a stock of the old seat tubes - so sorry about that. A few that IO did have (one off my personal bike) have all been accounted for.
More are currently being made though as I type this - and I am going to have it revised to be closer to the old one, with only a 2 degree difference in the bend and not nearly as long of a top section. The lower section will also be longer for more insertion into the frame.
I will be having a stock of extras made that we will have sent to us as soon as they are done, but I cannot provide any ETA for when that will happen. The bike industry is a real mess right now in terms of how busy everyone is from raw material all the way to getting things shipped - so 2021 and into possibly the next year or two after that is going to require the virtue of patience. But rest assured the change will be more the happy middle ground and I will work hard to get it as fast as possible.
To get more recline, you can remove the U shaped hoop and go directly to the post, but you will need a few spacers to take up the gap - basically 5mm on each side. I am working on sourcing a bunch of those and we can send those to anyone who needs them for just the price of shipping - of if you have a good local hardware or a good handful of washers that is the fastest option. This might not get you to the 30 degrees - but it is much better.
In the interim we are always looking at other ways to make this adjustment - the changes though always take time and prototyping is a lot of expense that ends up having to get amortized into he price of the machines - so we try to adjust what has been working as a first option.If there are better solutions or designs those are always welcome - as many of you know we have many times used customer solutions to things that were operational/adjustment challenges.
And as far as margins being enough to send out multiples of seat tubes, etc - you would be surprised. Recumbents are a VERY low margin operation y'all - this is a business of love of the bikes. If we were able to make upright frames by the tens of thousands for $200 a frame and sell them for $4,000 then we can talk about that. Sadly, recumbents are light years away from that. Shipping alone for a single bike from Taiwan to the US is now just a hair under $500 and its only getting more expensive.
Also as far as getting things like this done locally - in 6 years I have yet to find a US source that can do either prototyping or production faster or less expensive than it can be done overseas. More often places in the US refuse to do it entirely or the price is so sky high that parts would be 4-5x the price to the end consumer. So...
Robert
Let me adjust the seat angle issue and let you all know what we are going to do:
The last few production seat tubes had a top section of roughly 75mm and a bend of 39 degrees.
Near universal feedback on the Q45 for the last 2 years was this: people wanted a more upright seat and many were running it in the most upright position.
Fast forward to 2021 - the angle of the bend is 47 degrees and moved lower on the tube - making the top section roughly 128mm long. The result is a more upright seat obviously - but - not enough recline. The result of the change has put the mounting point much further forward than necessary.
So the pendulum swung a bit too far. Also the specs on the website were not accurate as a result as they reflected the older Q45. Those have been pulled for now. Personally I am not a fan of putting that type of information on the site, but thats just me.
Solution:
We do not have - currently - a stock of the old seat tubes - so sorry about that. A few that IO did have (one off my personal bike) have all been accounted for.
More are currently being made though as I type this - and I am going to have it revised to be closer to the old one, with only a 2 degree difference in the bend and not nearly as long of a top section. The lower section will also be longer for more insertion into the frame.
I will be having a stock of extras made that we will have sent to us as soon as they are done, but I cannot provide any ETA for when that will happen. The bike industry is a real mess right now in terms of how busy everyone is from raw material all the way to getting things shipped - so 2021 and into possibly the next year or two after that is going to require the virtue of patience. But rest assured the change will be more the happy middle ground and I will work hard to get it as fast as possible.
To get more recline, you can remove the U shaped hoop and go directly to the post, but you will need a few spacers to take up the gap - basically 5mm on each side. I am working on sourcing a bunch of those and we can send those to anyone who needs them for just the price of shipping - of if you have a good local hardware or a good handful of washers that is the fastest option. This might not get you to the 30 degrees - but it is much better.
In the interim we are always looking at other ways to make this adjustment - the changes though always take time and prototyping is a lot of expense that ends up having to get amortized into he price of the machines - so we try to adjust what has been working as a first option.If there are better solutions or designs those are always welcome - as many of you know we have many times used customer solutions to things that were operational/adjustment challenges.
And as far as margins being enough to send out multiples of seat tubes, etc - you would be surprised. Recumbents are a VERY low margin operation y'all - this is a business of love of the bikes. If we were able to make upright frames by the tens of thousands for $200 a frame and sell them for $4,000 then we can talk about that. Sadly, recumbents are light years away from that. Shipping alone for a single bike from Taiwan to the US is now just a hair under $500 and its only getting more expensive.
Also as far as getting things like this done locally - in 6 years I have yet to find a US source that can do either prototyping or production faster or less expensive than it can be done overseas. More often places in the US refuse to do it entirely or the price is so sky high that parts would be 4-5x the price to the end consumer. So...
Robert
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rfneep
Well-Known Member
I appreciate what Robert is doing and will be interested in how his new seat post version will work.
You know, if you really want a steep recline and don't want to wait for a fix to fit-check a more aggressive seat angle, it looks like you could use a simple straight 1-1/4" tube to replace the present seat post. Drill a cross hole in one end and pass a tube with a 5 mm ID through it. Then just use spacers over the cross tube on each side to center it. Crude, but it would not require any welding or anything. Parts could easily be sourced on the web. Just something I was musing about last night.
You know, if you really want a steep recline and don't want to wait for a fix to fit-check a more aggressive seat angle, it looks like you could use a simple straight 1-1/4" tube to replace the present seat post. Drill a cross hole in one end and pass a tube with a 5 mm ID through it. Then just use spacers over the cross tube on each side to center it. Crude, but it would not require any welding or anything. Parts could easily be sourced on the web. Just something I was musing about last night.
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Because I paid a lot for that 30° possibility - it’s a big reason I upgraded from my 12 year old SofRider. I believed your statement describing the bike’s technical detail, especially since as a company you’ve been so focused on technical details. I’m still in my 100 mile tryout period, and I want to try out what I want to try out - and I can’t.
Yes, seconding this, the seat angle was a MAJOR selling point as anything steeper and I suffer from recumbent butt. I'm quite used to the V20 and thought the 30 degree angle on a suspended tourer would be perfect. Pretty disappointed with how far off the seat angle actually is.
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benphyr
Guru-me-not
@Robert Holler, Cruzbike the company, Cruzbike the family of riders, and especially purchasers of the new Q45:
Thank you all for sharing so much information regarding the specifications and the challenges that have arisen from the changes of the new generation Q45.
Thank you Robert and Cruzbike for (as we have come to expect):
1. taking customer feedback to heart and acting upon it,
2. Responding promptly when issues arise,
3. Taking ownership of what has gone right and wrong and
4. outlining the steps that will be taken by the company,
5. Sharing the realities of the business that most companies would never dream of sharing,
6. Giving possible future and interim solutions without limiting customers options and in fact encouraging solutions from the family.
Thank you all for sharing so much information regarding the specifications and the challenges that have arisen from the changes of the new generation Q45.
Thank you Robert and Cruzbike for (as we have come to expect):
1. taking customer feedback to heart and acting upon it,
2. Responding promptly when issues arise,
3. Taking ownership of what has gone right and wrong and
4. outlining the steps that will be taken by the company,
5. Sharing the realities of the business that most companies would never dream of sharing,
6. Giving possible future and interim solutions without limiting customers options and in fact encouraging solutions from the family.
benphyr
Guru-me-not
so let’s see if I am following: a tube similar to the one the quick release goes through: same length and inside diameter (big enough for the quick release) with outside diameter large enough to be sturdy. Drill a hole same size as small tube outside diameter through the 1-1/4” tube an inch from the end or so. Work the small tube in until centred. Use epoxy or your favourite metal glue or welding or brazing to keep it from moving. Alternatively, you could use larger spacers, washers, etc. over the smaller tube to keep it centered. Even reflective tape around each part of the smaller tube that sticks out of the larger tube would do the trick.
