Advanced Figure 8's

[ratz]

Since this is Minnesota; I thought I should evaluate the V20 for playing hockey.
Goalie no; but maybe a middle defense man... oh wait, they don't play that way anymore.

Anyhow here's some 10-mph Figure-8 drills. Something to work on when you think you have the slow stuff mastered. This is not what the beginners drill looks like.

 

[Lief]

Is that what an outdoor hockey-rink looks like then?
Never seen one.

I'd be curious to hear more about what you are doing with your body/hips and arms on these turns?
One of your early conversations on turning talked about counter-steering, like motorcycle turns.
And RojoRacing (Jason) has had references to how he leans into turns, applies power at a particular time to maximize speed exiting a corner etc...

All that I do is "natural" but I think I could benefit from some proper "instruction" that may indicate weaknesses or places for improvement.
Sorta like "we all know how to drive - we've all passed the test" but go to a "racing class" and you are bound to learn some counter-intuitions that are profoundly important at the extremes.

All the usual caveats - your mileage may vary.

You don't have to stick to this but perhaps a specific use-case?
How do I maximize/balance traction and speed through a 90 degree corner at nominal flat cruising speeds of, say, 20mph?

 

[ratz]

I'd be curious to hear more about what you are doing with your body/hips and arms on these turns?

Yeah that might be worth the tripod camera; I'm definitely not stationary. There's definitely a counter lean out to weight the tires, a whole body lean in to carve the turn; and a timing to the change of direction steering occurs to match foot position. I was thinking very actively about it when I was doing it; but it didn't occur to me to film it; I was just screwing around testing the bike out and trying to warm up before the hill test. That ride area is about the size of a 3/4 basketball court and the wall comes up fast at 10mph so it keeps you honest.. The other side of the wall is the skateboard park; that is beyond my skillz.

Is that what an outdoor hockey-rink looks like then?

Safest place right now; it's about the only spot that doesn't have spring gravel all over the place left from the winter.

 

[DavidCH]

use-case?

Emmmm must be a software requirements term. I think I would take it wide from the start of the turn and power thru without changing down

 

[ratz]

You don't have to stick to this but perhaps a specific use-case?

There are a few:

Re-stabilize after over steering due to obstacle like pot hole
How fast can I change directions to either 180/270 out of a crash; I'm pretty good at 270's at this point.
S-curve around a car or pedestrian.
Dog dogging (Farm dogs come out of no where, and Collies like to Heard things)
Riding down the MUP a little faster than I'm suppose and doing the curves or avoid roller-skiers.
Aggressive out and around when drafter a DF rider
Make a video to make you dizzy

But really the more abrupt things I can do on the bike at speeds < 10-12mph; the happier I am as I always seem to need those reflexive instincts on the road when something stupid happens. The V20 is different enough from the Yellow V; that I am out re-practicing at the start of rides. Right now lots of tight maneuvers and climbing steep hills to find the limits. That and now that 25lbs is gone from the engine my balance instincts need updates too.


Basically any time you want to turn the bike by throwing your weight hard one way into the turn; counter leaning to weight the wheels; you need a little counter steering to control that lean. That part just sort of happens I don't actually get the math, I think it just happens and works, you almost cannot counter steer on the V20 because of the leverage of the nose, when throw your weight left the bike goes left but the front will lag and the nose will turn right because your force left is at the fork and the wheel doesn't necessarily want to follow. This assumes you didn't actively steer left with the handle bars at the same time, just lean. I'm sure Jason could tell us what's really happening I'm riding on feel only.

 

[super slim]

Ratz is it possible to mount a camera off the top of the rear seat looking forward to see the hip and shoulder movements?

 

[DavidCH]

Dog dogging

Had this on a DF and went over the handlebars. Not good. If it happens again the Dog gets it with a hyper rotating chainwheel.

 

[RojoRacing]

One of your early conversations on turning talked about counter-steering, like motorcycle turns.
And RojoRacing (Jason) has had references to how he leans into turns, applies power at a particular time to maximize speed exiting a corner etc...

Your probably thinking of my reference to which foot to have up during a coasting turn when you want to accelerate hard out of the corner an not upset your balance during the initial pedal pressure. The answer was to have your outside foot up while coasting through a corner so when you go to apply sudden pressure your foot will force your wheel into the corner and lift you up as you accelerate. If you have the inside foot up you'll cause your wheel to turn out of the corner causing your balance to suddenly fall to the inside making you wobble to correct. This only matters if your going to slam the pedals out of a hard corner, if your smooth a fluid then it doesn't matter as much. If I was racing the V on a go-cart track and trying to maximize corner speed and accelerate in a predictable and repeatable environment that's where my described technique would be the most use. Could you imagine circuit racing on a course like this with bicycle going elbow to elbow? I know the three wheel HPV races do something similar but I'm talking 2 wheels and the best riders at leaning the bike to the maximum.

watch to the very end, I promise there's a treat. The laps with me trying to pass the blue dirt bike are all in sequence broken up with inserted highlights throughout the rest of the session.

 

[Lief]

my reference to which foot to have up during a coasting turn when you want to accelerate hard out of the corner

Yes - that's the one. At the time I couldn't grok it. In this context it makes more sense. Thanks.

If it happens again the Dog gets it with a hyper rotating chainwheel.

I buried my hyper-rotating chainwheel into the bumper of 200x Camry at about 18mph. A) thank goodness the driver didn't want to exchange info; it would have cost me. B) The dog, in the same scenario, will not fare well.

now that 25lbs is gone from the engine

Congratz! Do you think this is more why the V20 is "different" than the Yellow V? or are there enough mechanical differences to matter? I've been "offline" here for a while and that's the 1st I've heard/seen significant difference mentioned. Maybe if I ever make it to one of Robert's Cascade rides - I'll get a chance to see a new V in person and make some personal assessments. (side note: I have the headrest clamps now - I have no excuse for not coming out).

I'm definitely not stationary. There's definitely a counter lean out to weight the tires, a whole body lean in to carve the turn; and a timing to the change of direction steering occurs to match foot position.

I think I tend to ride more stationary, chest to knees, than I probably could safely. That hurts me a little bit i think when I ever ride, ahem *race*, with Tim Turner (one never merely rides with Tim Turner). I don't do it enough to get good. But when commuting (and the few long-distance events I've done) I just didn't have much call for anything but predictablility (or economy).

Could you imagine circuit racing on a course like this with bicycle going elbow to elbow? I know the three wheel HPV races do something similar but I'm talking 2 wheels and the best riders at leaning the bike to the maximum.

Jason, (and anyone else on this forum honestly) If you ever get to the NW with your Cruzbike contact me. The Saturday Shop Ride in Snohomish can have a large good A-group and now I think they have at least 2 or 3 solid bent riders who don't really go elbow-to-elbow (open roads) but if the front rider were to go into a ditch so would the next 5. Tight, fun, bent-friendly group. Better than me - contact TimTurner on BROL. He's probably solely responsible for the bent-friendly atmosphere up there - always there, always competitive, always honest, and fast as hell. Great for a beer after the ride as well.
Open invitation.

I guess I got a little off track there - I've been heads down bouncing between remodeling and tween-girl-sleepovers for a couple months. I had to pull my head up and take a recumbent breath.

 

[ratz]

(one never merely rides with Tim Turner).

I'm pretty sure Tim's solo rides are a race against Tim Turner

Do you think this is more why the V20 is "different" than the Yellow V? or are there enough mechanical differences to matter?

Nope I can ride both still and the V20 is different. Subjectively (no actual measurements taken)
1) Better fit for the boom length.
2) Front end feels lighter
3) Front end is even more stable at speed
4) Better fit "vertically" in the front; but that required cutting the stem which I didn't do on the yellow because you can get some of that from the stem going up in the slider
5) Rake and Trail seems better when handling at slow speeds, brake stands are almost possible, and super tight cornering is more stable.

It's all really subtle stuff; I think most of it is from the boom change over

 

[ratz]

But when commuting (and the few long-distance events I've done) I just didn't have much call for anything but predictablility (or economy).

I think that's what's really pushed my slow speed handling obsession. When I first learned the bike, I went straight out on the road to get up over 18mph because that's when the bike was stable. With the Silvio Bullhorns the bike was rock stable if it was going in a straight line at 18mph. Of course the arms hurt like a son-bitch when I got done. The problem I would run into is that all the good routes around here force you to go through little hamlets; and invariably I would run into "helpful" motorists at 4 way stops that want to give me their turn in the rotation. That kind of unplanned for change at super slow speeds would always mess me up; I'd swerve and teeter; as I tried to change direction, or speed when going 4mph and suddenly feeling the need to be at 15mph to get through the intersection and out of the way; knowing full well that they were trying to be nice but grumbling about "having to wait for me". So I started doing the drills before each leisure ride. The more I drilled the better and more comfortable I got on the bike.

Somewhere along the way I went duh this is what we did as kids; we played on the bikes in tight spaces to see who could out do who; and ergo we became adept-bike-handlers. Low and behold all of my riding got better not just the slow stuff; the slow drills had a direct impact on handling at speed and the sore arms vanished. Fast forward last fall; and I was doing the night time videos and I started on accident doing the drills at faster speeds because it looked very cool to ride over the camera's position doing a 45 degree lean at speed. Because of the tight spacing of the lot I used I realized it was fun to see how fast I could go and still turn is the space of 2.5 car lengths. So this year I carried that forward; and I'm doing 5 minutes of really slow stuff; than 5 minutes of fast stuff in a car lot, then I go off and do my hill intervals or distance ride. Seems to help with balance and control, especially after being indoors on a fixed trainer all winter. YMMV but I think practicing at the edge of your skills under control and with care is a valuable way to spend 10 minutes each ride. 10 minutes goes fast and it's really a lot of practice.

 

[Robert O]

Yes - that's the one. At the time I couldn't grok it. In this context it makes more sense. Thanks.


Congratz! Do you think this is more why the V20 is "different" than the Yellow V? or are there enough mechanical differences to matter? I've been "offline" here for a while and that's the 1st I've heard/seen significant difference mentioned. Maybe if I ever make it to one of Robert's Cascade rides - I'll get a chance to see a new V in person and make some personal assessments. (side note: I have the headrest clamps now - I have no excuse for not coming out).

I guess I got a little off track there - I've been heads down bouncing between remodeling and tween-girl-sleepovers for a couple months. I had to pull my head up and take a recumbent breath.

That's just the way life is, Lief. Not that I'm the easiest person to get hold of, either. Hey, if you're going to be at the Captain's Bash tomorrow...

 

[Dave Arnold]

Since this is Minnesota; I thought I should evaluate the V20 for playing hockey.
Goalie no; but maybe a middle defense man... oh wait, they don't play that way anymore.

Anyhow here's some 10-mph Figure-8 drills. Something to work on when you think you have the slow stuff mastered. This is not what the beginners drill looks like.

Bob, are you fully reclined the entire drill or are you sitting up sometimes?

Dave

 

[ratz]

Bob, are you fully reclined the entire drill or are you sitting up sometimes?

Dave

I sat up entering and leaving the rink, the rest of the time that is reclined.