Aero Time Trial helmet

[WhiteSilvio]

Hello there. I'd just like to

Hello there.
I'd just like to point out....

This was an initial setup prior to me starting to ride the Silvio and things got moved a bit once I got going, but generally it is hard to alter the width of the handlebars.
The attachment IMG_0445sml.jpg is no longer available
Edit by John R:I was planning on replacing the picture with an edited version but EDIT POST MODE does not seem to allow for attaching picture files, and unfortunately I deleted IMG0445 before i realised that and so now its gone. Apologies for that. You live and learn.
Arms are almost straight ahead. Hands around the same height as the shoulders. The pictures attempt to demonstrate the difference in frontal area and the funneling effect of the arms with the wider Origin bars.
Spot the difference? Maybe several mph/kph?

johntolhurst wrote:
Tricky stuff, but aero always wins out.

As I suggested in my previous post:
"I would suggest taking some head-on shots of Maria in her riding position, because I think there may be more to be picked up efficiency-wise with different handlebars. While the Origin bars are obviously good for everyday use, I have a belief that one's arms are spread out and create an inverted funnel, trapping air."

I notice in Maria's side on shot (from her record run) that her handlebars are quite high, and examination of the picture shows that the spacers on the headset are under the stem clamp device.
I believe if the spacers are on top of the stem clamp that this will help with the aerodynamics by lowering her arms to a more horizontal position, and additionally if road bars were used there would be a further benefit aero-wise.

johntolhurst wrote:
But how many free miles would she get if she had an aero helmet that could be worn that time. Story time. I
did a bunch of roll-down tests comparing prototype sigmas to the silvio, swapping rider, andn all that. For
some reason I rolled down faster what ever bike I rode. That reason turned out to be the visor on the other
guys helmet, (we think) since I was 10% lighter. Tricky stuff, but aero always wins out.

Agreed aerodynamics are important, by "the power of 3!" Double your speed, 8 times the power required to push the same air.

So while the aerodynamics of the helmet are playing a significant part, there are far bigger gains to be made.
I again point out the front carboyoke. How aerodynamic is that?

All the avenues need to be explored if one is serious about a world record run!

A few thoughts. Regards John R

 

[Mark B]

I agree with WS about the bar

I agree with WS about the bar placement needing to be low. I've run mine both ways and I like them so they just clear my knees. I also agree that the Origin 8 bars splay your arms out into dirty air just a little. When going aero on downhill runs, I squeeze my knees to the headtube and my elbows to my side and I can feel my speed pick up. If the road is super smooth, I'll move my hands to the tops of the bar (closer to the crutch) and get another perceived boost, though minimal. I have toyed with the idea of trying a clip on aero bar for such runs. I think the knee clearance (for me) and the better control from a wider grip outweighs any aero advantage lost. FWIW, I believe they are looking at the handlebar thing, but from a little different angle than we are discussing here.

Mark

 

[Mark B]

WhiteSilvio

WhiteSilvio wrote:
johntolhurst wrote:
Thanks for that John, I was composing a reply and it morphed into this blog entry: http://www.cruzbike.com/content/vendetta-shaping

Hi John,
Interesting blog entry regarding the Vendetta and design concepts.
I'm wondering now, will Maria be riding the Silvio or Vendetta for the WR attempt?
Also out of curiosity, is there a minimum number of bikes that have to be sold to qualify as a "production model"? (Reminds me a bit of car and motorcycle rules for racing/records)

All the best,
John R
PS Although I generally agree with Lance, "It's not about the bike", the whole recumbent "ban" by the UCI came about because recumbents were allowing "second string" riders to win, because of the recumbent's superior aerodynamic performance compared with DF bikes. If only they'd allowed both classes to develop, recumbent development and manufacture would be up where DF design has gone.


Yes, but now the UCI has taken all the fun out of racing as there are no more prototypes allowed. Only production models are allowed in UCI sponsored races. How you are supposed to "prove" a design or a component under race conditions is anybody's guess.

Mar

 

[John Tolhurst]

WhiteSilvio wrote: Hello

WhiteSilvio wrote:
Hello there.
I'd just like to point out
SNIP
A few thoughts. Regards John R

Thanks for that John, I was composing a reply and it morphed into this blog entry: http://www.cruzbike.com/content/vendetta-shaping

 

[trapdoor2]

buyagain wrote: trapdoor2

buyagain wrote:
trapdoor2 wrote:
At low speeds a lot of strange things happen with surface flow. Golf-balls are not optimized to operate in our
range.
When you talk this way Trapdoor2 you make me think you don't read my posts.

Not any more.

buyagain wrote:
trapdoor2 wrote:
Considering the huge number of hours the top TT
Lets give credit where credit is due. I suggest you Find out Who Jack Lambie was. Vaguely referring to a TT
bunch who might have been lucky enough to study under Lambie don't cut it.

PS what was your point again, Trapdoor2. I forgot. LOL

Personally I don't give a hoot who this Lambie guy was. You seem to want to attack me for not being an aerodynamicist. I got other things to do.

 

[Mark B]

Play nice, fellas... Mark

Play nice, fellas...

Mark

 

[buyagain]

Trapdoor2; As you stated

Trapdoor2;
As you stated earlier. The helmet aerodynamic thingy is not nearly as important as what this thread has morphed into. John did pose the question however. As brilliant as my observations were, notice how I'm getting my just reward;
Now you are finally reading my posts more carefully and apparently could care the slightest of what I'm trying to communicate and Johntolhurst has never even acknowledged a thing I've said. None the less this idea of painting this solution that Jack Lambie used on any object (bike included) and mounting it on a jig suspended out front on the front bumper of a car or truck and running it up to speed is just as affective as the most expensive wind tunnels available in my book Jack was a key member of the man power fight revolution back in the 70s. Thats very much a-kin to what Johntolhurst seems to be interested in here on this particular topic.

PS I think everyone aught to take another look at the photos on this thread. I think I just spotted the "Lone Ranger", without his mask.

Bob

 

[WhiteSilvio]

johntolhurst wrote: Thanks

johntolhurst wrote:
Thanks for that John, I was composing a reply and it morphed into this blog entry: http://www.cruzbike.com/content/vendetta-shaping

Hi John,
Interesting blog entry regarding the Vendetta and design concepts.
I'm wondering now, will Maria be riding the Silvio or Vendetta for the WR attempt?
Also out of curiosity, is there a minimum number of bikes that have to be sold to qualify as a "production model"? (Reminds me a bit of car and motorcycle rules for racing/records)

All the best,
John R
PS Although I generally agree with Lance, "It's not about the bike", the whole recumbent "ban" by the UCI came about because recumbents were allowing "second string" riders to win, because of the recumbent's superior aerodynamic performance compared with DF bikes. If only they'd allowed both classes to develop, recumbent development and manufacture would be up where DF design has gone.

 

[Mark B]

buyagain wrote: Trapdoor2; As

buyagain wrote:
Trapdoor2;
As you stated earlier. The helmet aerodynamic thingy is not nearly as important as what this thread has morphed into. John did pose the question however. As brilliant as my observations were, notice how I'm getting my just reward;
Now you are finally reading my posts more carefully and apparently could care the slightest of what I'm trying to communicate and Johntolhurst has never even acknowledged a thing I've said. None the less this idea of painting this solution that Jack Lambie used on any object (bike included) and mounting it on a jig suspended out front on the front bumper of a car or truck and running it up to speed is just as affective as the most expensive wind tunnels available in my book Jack was a key member of the man power fight revolution back in the 70s. Thats very much a-kin to what Johntolhurst seems to be interested in here on this particular topic.

PS I think everyone aught to take another look at the photos on this thread. I think I just spotted the "Lone Ranger", without his mask.

Bob


Bob,

To tell the truth, I glossed right over what you said, too. Great point, but we (I) missed it. It may have been a perfectly great idea and I'm sorry nobody saluted it. That's no reason to start a pi$$ing match. Please watch the tone.

Mark

 

[John Tolhurst]

buyagain wrote: Trapdoor2; As

buyagain wrote:
Trapdoor2;
As you stated earlier. The helmet aerodynamic thingy is not nearly as important as what this thread has morphed into. John did pose the question however. As brilliant as my observations were, notice how I'm getting my just reward;
Now you are finally reading my posts more carefully and apparently could care the slightest of what I'm trying to communicate and Johntolhurst has never even acknowledged a thing I've said. None the less this idea of painting this solution that Jack Lambie used on any object (bike included) and mounting it on a jig suspended out front on the front bumper of a car or truck and running it up to speed is just as affective as the most expensive wind tunnels available in my book Jack was a key member of the man power fight revolution back in the 70s. Thats very much a-kin to what Johntolhurst seems to be interested in here on this particular topic.

PS I think everyone aught to take another look at the photos on this thread. I think I just spotted the "Lone Ranger", without his mask.

Bob

Bob, I think I did quote an entire post of yours earlier, before I made my own comment underneath it. I guess we have to accept that just cuase someonen reads what we wrote doesn't mean the get to the same depth, or have the same enthusiasm for it.

I'll clarify my interest. Currently I am consumed by bringing about production of a large number of bikes for next year, design and prototyping of the Vendetta, resolving accessory detailing for the Sigma and developing a new shopping cart site; as well as doing my regular job to support my family.

Maria will be making another record attempt pretty soon, so there isn't time as well as me not having any left anyway to embark on a design process, although I would absolutely love to following the methodology you outlined. So instead what I have to be satisfied with as a research question is whether we can identify a helmet already produced that seems near to what would be ideal. The investment made trying to win the Tour de France results in a lot of wind tunnel work for exactly the problem we face, exceept their design speed is higher and head orientation a little different. So if I have to bet on a solution today, its going to take a lot of direction from those results. Everyone involved in developing those solutions understands as much or more about it as anyone here would be my guess. I base that guess on having 20 or 30 top university professors in a range of fields on my professional client list, and I know that these guys don't miss anything, they are superbly well informed. If you are working on the design of a TT helmet for the Tour, you are in that category also, or would at least have that level of expertise on your advisory panel.

JonB pointed to an interesting helmet, and I asked, how does one purchase it? I can actually solve that myself but that is where progress sits at present. I may see about modifying one of those.

I really appreciate your contributions Bob, this is a great thread.

 

[Mark B]

What about this helmet?

What about this helmet? Here's a video about it. Available through QBP.

Mark

 

[WhiteSilvio]

Mark B wrote: What about this

Mark B wrote:
What about this helmet? Here's a video about it. Available through QBP.

Mark

Hey Mark,
I reckon you're onto something there!! Looks good, and even has the "golf ball dimples". Presumably it is readily available.
And that example comes with a pretty good "colour name", White Silver. Gotta like that!
John R

 

[Mark B]

WhiteSilvio wrote: Mark B

WhiteSilvio wrote:
Mark B wrote:
What about this helmet? Here's a video about it. Available through QBP.

Mark

Hey Mark,
I reckon you're onto something there!! Looks good, and even has the "golf ball dimples". Presumably it is readily available.
And that example comes with a pretty good "colour name", White Silver. Gotta like that!
John R


I thought the built in cooling system was pretty neat.

Mark

 

[JonB]

Here are 2

Here are 2 alternatives

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Catli ... 360042555/
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Las_C ... 360040584/

 

[buyagain]

Mark B wrote: Bob, To tell

Mark B wrote:
Bob,

To tell the truth, I glossed right over what you said, too. Great point, but we (I) missed it. It may have been a perfectly great idea and I'm sorry nobody saluted it. That's no reason to start a pi$$ing match. Please watch the tone.

Mark

Mark;
Neither you nor Johntolhurst did anything in the slightest.
The only thing pissy was when my point was poo pooed. Now come on guys that's a funny statement.... And you had absolutely nothing to do with it, Mark. I had no intention towards you or others in the slightest. Pleeeeeassseee understand that I'm not pissed in the slightest. I can perfectly understand why many if not most would have glossed over the topic. If you're going to jump on anyone please jump Johntolhurst for raising the topic. And please understand that I'm joking there too because Johntolhurst is obviously super busy right now. So please lets all join together and give this whole pissy thing the one fingered salute.
Also, something extremely funny here is that your video has the very dimpled turbulators and flat finish in the helmet.
(Great video BTW)

Regards

Bob
PS. Trapdoor2 can speak for himself for sure. I think he understands me completely now.
Especially after your video made it clearer. We can all learn from each other.

 

[John Tolhurst]

Mark B wrote: What about this

Mark B wrote:
What about this helmet? Here's a video about it. Available through QBP.

Mark

Good one!

 

[Peder Torgersen]

johntolhurst wrote: Mark B

johntolhurst wrote:
Mark B wrote:
What about this helmet? Here's a video about it. Available through QBP.

Mark

Good one!


I liked these helmets and the possibility of using your water bottle to cool your head.
I have one concern as long as you use water it should work fine. When you have some kind of mixture in your water bottle you can risk a glue effect so do a test!
I still have hair but it has gotten thinner over the years and would like to keep what's left.

Peder

 

[Lief]

slightly off topic but...Can

slightly off topic but...Can we know/find out when and where Maria will be making her record attempt?
I want to follow as closely as possible.

 

[JonB]

Peder Torgersen wrote: I

Peder Torgersen wrote:
I liked these helmets and the possibility of using your water bottle to cool your head.
I have one concern as long as you use water it should work fine. When you have some kind of mixture in your water bottle you can risk a glue effect so do a test!

Something in your water? Next you speak about something in your blood.

 

[Mark B]

blief.z wrote: slightly off

blief.z wrote:
slightly off topic but...Can we know/find out when and where Maria will be making her record attempt?
I want to follow as closely as possible.


I think they're talking about an assault on the hour record, so probably a velodrome. I'd guess LA.

Mark