Bullhorn and Dropbar Options

[Ivan]

I have long been thinking of the switching my Silvio 2.0 handlebars to a narrower drop style version. After tons of looking around and thinking of what I wanted I finally ordered a generic carbon handlebar from China for US$56. In 2 weeks, it arrived packed nicely if not humorously like this!

It weighs in at 238 g in its 44cm C-C size. This is a replica of the Zipp Vuka Sprint with the key differences being (a) I chose the one without Zipp logos (b) the internal cable routings are not as slick, and (c) the curvature around the stem clamp area is different. This last item (C) is essential because the clamp area on the Zipp is 50mm, whereas the Silvio's clamp is 60mm. The curvature on the Zipp Vuka Sprint begins too soon, whereas it JUST FITS on this replica.

It was quite a hassle to change the bars as I had to re-cut some housing, especially since these bars route the cables internally. This was a feature I really wanted so that the cables would be neat AND I can leave the top of the bar exposed in their carbon glory, rather than tape up the whole bar in an area where I don't even put my hands.

These bars are designed with an aerodynamic top, so they would only look good if you mount your handlebars in a similar orientation that a DF road bike would. If you have your brifters pointing up at a high angle then the aerodynamic curvature of the bar would like strange and the internal cable routing would look silly.

You can see that I cut off about 65mm from the drop bars. Later on, I'll comment that I could cut off another 10mm, but I figure less is more at first! A dremel tool with cutter and sander made this quick and simple work.

Here she is all taped up. I am 175cm tall and 70kg. I fit nicely in these 44cm C-C bars. I can't imagine any narrower otherwise my thumbs would contact my legs. I worried whether when shifting, whether the levers moving inward would contact my legs, but they did not.

What is a mild concern however, is that when I make a tight turn, the bar ends can contact my hip and/or my upper leg. This happens because my BB is high and my handlebars are low. I never heard anyone else make this comment, but it also occurred to me that most others have their handlebars higher. This issue never happened with the original handlebars because they flare out so much. I think it is manageable and with improved handling skill I will lean the bike more and need to turn handlebars less. If I hadn't cut the bars, the problem would be worse. I am considering taking off another 10mm as this may help.

On my brief test ride, the feel is quite different. I have yet to go on a longer ride. I am looking forward to having my arms in a narrower position, and the bike is a lot easier for me to store and move around in the tight spaces that I do this.

 

[BentBierz]

Nice look Ivan!

Nice look Ivan!

 

[Eric Winn]

I'm much shorter but have a

I'm much shorter but have a similar cockpit configuration on my Vendetta.

When I was using the Cruzbike drop bars things got a little snug on really, really tight turns. I still had clearance but it was getting close. The bullhorns eliminated that so maybe you should try some carbon bullhorns?

-Eric

 

[Robert Holler]

That is a sharp looking

That is a sharp looking setup!

 

[Jeremy S]

Very nice Ivan, when I saw

Very nice Ivan, when I saw the picture in your first post I thought you had baked a handlebar baguette.

 

[Ivan]

Great idea Jeremy!!  
Eric,

Great idea Jeremy!!

Eric, I did find some wide cheap carbon bullhorns and did consider them. However, I do want to use my brifters and can't figure a nice way to do the cable routing. Solutions that people have used before are not elegant. These generic replicas also come in wide widths that bullhorns typically do not. So it is quite possible for Silvio/Vendetta especially if one already has the appropriate levers.

http://m.aliexpress.com/item/1539528554.html

 

[Eric Winn]

And here I thought I was just

And here I thought I was just making things up with my carbon bullhorns remark.

I was looking at my knees bobbing up and down on the trainer the other day and thinking about this post and I realized that the bullhorns just flip the clearance problem to above the bar rather than below the bar. Something like a really tight u-turn is likely to tangle with your knees.

I haven't ridden my Vendetta much on the road with the bullhorns so I'll check this out when ever the earth thaws from this new ice age we are having and I can get back outside. It is -2F outside as I type this.

Maybe get a Mobius Action cam or tape my iPhone to my forehead or something to record the action.

-Eric

 

[trplay]

This thread demonstrates how different body types

This thread demonstrates how different body types can make huge difference in the Silvio bike fit. It also demonstrates how buying at a dealer such as Vite Bikes can save a lot of hassle and money because you can get the custom fit correct, such as the right handle bar, cranks, etc the first time during the original purchase without paying twice. Those are very nice handlebars but the width would never give me the clearance for anything but straight riding and the location of the mirrors wouldn't provide sufficient viewing. They don't fit me but the bars will work for other riders like a champ. I'm jealous, they look good.

 

[mauler]

Ivan, be very careful with

Ivan, be very careful with China-made carbon products.

I am not saying that they are all bad but you never can tell.

I got an original 3T carbon handlebar for my Moulton. I tipped over twice onto the handlebar while clipped in on a ride. The handlebar fractured.

The concern is a good-looking, but poorly-made, carbon bar failing even without impact. Unthinkable while on a ride.

Ride safely!

 

[JO_CONNOR]

Although I share Mauler's

Although I share Mauler's concern about bad copies of brand products, I would still like it if Ivan would share the link of where he got that aero shaped drop bar. I have a similar shaped carbon drop on my DF Wilier from IRD. It has a really nice recess under the cross bar for tucking the wires from the Campy shifters. Glad I found this Cruzbike world!

I've been looking at recumbents for some time. The 10m chain, idler pulleys, guide tubes and other extraneous hardware stuff has held me off. I've been perusing these Silvio builds and ride testimonies for several weeks. The front wheel drive concept sure looks a whole lot simpler - for my next ride, this is the one!

Thanks to all of you for sharing all your experiences and pictures. I'll be doing the same soon with my own.

Cheers.
JO

 

[ak-tux]

Unlike the Pinarello, Silvio's handlebar doesn't support weight

Whatever the case, the main advantage that the cruzbike has over the Pinarello is that the handlebar does not support the rider's weight during the ride. So in the unfortunate event that the handle bar fails, the feet will still maintain some steering assuming that the rider can ride hands free.

This however, opens a debate about the over priced products in the bicycle industry.

I still believe that despite modern technological advancements in carbon fibre production, some of the leading bicycle brands still have their carbon products over priced. For example, I don't understand how in this time and age, a carbon stem of 90mm can cost more than US$ 300 (Zipp, Time, Ritchey) while a similar Taiwan made OEM carbon stem of almost the same weight can cost US$ 35.

It is very temping to go for the "cheaper" non-branded OEM products from Taiwan, for example, who have a reputation for quality.

 

[Ivan]

Yup, I have similar concerns

Yup, I have similar concerns over non-branded carbon products. I read many positive and negative thoughts people have about this. I would replace these bars after any crash because of this concern. Like ak-tux, I think the application with a Cruzbike is less strenuous than for a DF though, cos on a DF not only is my weight down on the bars, I am pulling up/down in that same direction. So the pics of fractures we see are often at the stem clamp. On a Cruzbike, we apply significant force only when climbing and pulling hard on the bars. For much of the time, our weight is not on the bars. Roy -- even your 3T handlebar fractured on a tip-over!!

I agree that body types makes a huge difference on Silvio turns with this setup. But I think the knowledge gained by doing this yourself far beats having any shop do it. Even if I changed the bars later, I would end up with significant savings over the shop and had the experience of more setups under my belt. I know a lot more about fit and have ideas to adjust that fit in the Silvio cockpit than before this modification.

The bars are purchased from this seller, Jane Hong: http://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/307985418.html -- there are more sellers and cheaper ones with logos printed on the bars, but I did not want these logos.

 

[mauler]

I heard from a cycling friend

I heard from a cycling friend that he saw a Pinarello in pieces after a crash.

We suspected it was a Chinarello, a Pinarello knock-off for a quarter, or less, the price of an original.

If really so, the strength of the bike was also similarly "discounted."

The rider survived, I heard.

The words my friend used, Ivan, were "Pinarello in pieces."

 

[ratz]

Carbon Bullhorn test coming

Ivan,

Thanks for sharing this info. Quality issues aside this opens up a world of engineering via wallet that just isn't possible with high priced products where experimentation would be cost prohibitive.

I too find the flare on the stock drop bars a bit much with the higher bottom bracket configuration; it is not quite right for me as it leads to wide arm angle that is going to catch a lot of wind and the drops are down a bit low. I could live with it or remove the extension, but it is not optimal my tastes. I looked at stock Cruzbike bullhorns, but like Eric I'm not sure about the braking layout. So I am going to do some engineering with real world parts and see what happens.

I have the Zipp clone TT Base bar (bull horn) 460mm on the way for testing. Zipp does not even make such a bar; but the size and shape looks just like a ProfileDesign Viper Wing Base Bar but 20mm wider. So can test without the expense. For this I am going to iterate through three different configurations to see if any of them will work better.

1) Put SRAM R2C aero shifters on the ends and jtek clamp-on aeroBrake levers on the horn shaft

2) Brifters on the horns

3) Put proper Aerobar Brakes on the ends; and SRAM double-tap 10 flat-bar road shifter on the horn shaft


I will share the results once I get the bars.

 

[ratz]

and then there is Hydrom Formed Aluminum

Next weeks project to figure out if Hydroform Aluminum might marry out well.

 

[John Tolhurst]

will be watching with

will be watching with interest ...

 

[Ivan]

Hi Ratz, will be looking for

Hi Ratz, will be looking for updates with interest! I chose not to go any handlebar that curved forward like in your Profile Design Zero handlebar above. Some aero drop bars do that as well. This doesn't work for me as the tops of thighs would touch the bars and I want the handlebars as forward as possible.

I am especially interested in your
#1 - Whether the JTek brakes provide sufficient braking power as primary brakes. Comments and design seem to say no, but I haven't heard anyone with experience confirm/deny this.
#2 - Whether brifters can fit on while at the same time running hidden cables.

- Whether you have clearance problems in tight turns / U-turns. My setup now has more clearance issues than the original handlebars but I am still able to U-turn and overall like it better than the original bars. I would not recommend my setup for first-time Cruzbikers though. Much easier to learn with the original handlebars.

 

[ratz]

Just like Xmas

Hey Ivan,

That is very useful info; keep any insight coming as you ride with yours. I have an advantage since it is indoor training season here I have the time to do handle bar testing now without impacting riding season. It's painful to do these swaps because every major boom change means resetting the derailleur (doubly so with a Yaw). I will be able to eliminate those configurations that just will not work, but the final candidates will have to be road tested.

One disclaimer on all this; the stock handle bars work great for me; and seem well thought out. This is more about esthetics. I understand the reason the handle bars are the way they are; I just think they are not up to snuff with the rest of the bike's elegance. I also think your carbon mode would also be a good one for me.

On to the bullhorns

The stock bullhorn seem (only from photos) a tad long for the Silvio without the extension as configured for a short rider (call it Ivan style) That is just a guess. So this is a fun project to kill 2-3 more months of winter. If I get something that works great; if not we will put the stock bars on and go ride.

I had similar concerns about the JTek Brakes. I have already determined they are nonstarters. They are 22.5mm and the bars without Aero Arms are 24mm. The Jtek Bracket is super stiff aluminum and will not be able to stretch fit to 24mm. So the quest for a set of brakes that fit 24mm is on MTB v brake handles will also be two small in most cases. Perhaps an elegant trigger shifter that would allow for bar end brakes instead. Although Jtek is only about 30 minutes from my house so perhaps some coffee and pizza could get me a custom fab made. hmmmmm.

Ok so far:

The T2wing bar works nice upside down with Brifters on it. Very nice in fact; plenty of clearance for turns; it is possible to get knee strike on the gear shifting if you time it wrong; similar to what you would get on a DF in a standing attack. I suspect your carbon mod has the same problem; and maybe even John's setup with standard bars. Of course Simply timing your shifting solves that and is minor.

Brifters with hidden cables would require drilling an extra hole on each arm; but would work; just not sure if it would be worth it. If I get a final configuration that works great I might do that; and I would probably then go through the hassle of running all the cables inside the Boom with just cable liner for the housing.

The Ozero Aero works nice with the Bar end shifters; but will need the brake research to continue. So that ones kind of a dead end for now.

There is a third bar OzeroTT which combines the two formats basically the Ozero without the drop; but maintaining the hydroformed glory and the flat section. (which is surprisingly nice at any angle). That 3rd bar showed up today.

I think the OzeroTT will be both usable upside down with Brifters and right side up with bar end shifters. Best of both configurations However the reach on them might be just a little too short in bar end mode with the extension. The Ozero Aero reach is great. The Ozero without an extension might be equallly good. I can get straight arm and it is comfortable and I can put hands on the cross bar and get elbows in for what would make a comfy climbing position but it needs some experimenting. Road testing might prove different.

The 2nd Silvio will be here probably in about two weeks. So then I will be able to do side by side comparisons of positions with and without the extension installed that will tell a lot. We are going to end up with two identical Silvios or two very different ones; which will be interesting in and of itself

Once I eliminate a few configuration that simply do not work I will get some photos of the candidates posted.

Can someone post the dimensions of the Cruzbike bullhorns? I know these TT bars are shorter which makes sense on the Silvo without the extension; maybe not so much with the extension. I would like to compare home much shorter they really are. Dimensions of the stock brakes would also be interesting;

These bars are all 440mm center to center., 460mm inside to side would be better if building/specing something completely custom. If John's watching; that is probably worth noting.

In the mean time here are the OzeroTT which are beautiful; just lacks nice Cruzbike logos

 

[John Tolhurst]

I'm watching with interest,

I'm watching with interest, yep.

I wondering if you will find like I did that the upturn was not enough and that it causes too much forward rotation of the wrist when used with bar end shifters. I'm wondering if you turn them over and fit brifters and hold the brifter body pistol style, that the diameter of the brifter body will be too large. I'm wondering if those bullhorns are long enough to keep behind the knees when the arms are roughly straight (best for longer performance riding).

 

[ratz]

Hi John, a couple of findings

Hi John, a couple of findings for those questions so far: (sorry no pics yet)

I was expecting the upturn to be too little so I got return to center shifters, went with SRAM probably should have done ZiPPS for the bigger control arm. So far that seems to make the bend just fine. So far it feels that mounting the bar at 10-20 degree above flat is optimal. The flat areo section of the bars is fine at that angle and very comfortable to grip with the hands for a tucked elbow position. That angle also give extra thigh clearance. I don't think there is any aero negative there since the leg will be constantly churning the air. It's quit comfortable.

So far the challenges to be solved are that with bar end shifters; I haven't found any good brake options to pair with them. Since Jtek is only 35 minutes from my home I have reach out to Ryan to see if he will work with me on some custom reverse pull brakes, with a spring return and with the 24mm diameter brackets. We'll see if I can get his attention. Otherwise it might be Bar end brakes and a custom shifter based on MTB trigger shifters. The SRAM double tap isn't huge and has a replaceable bracket. I have see some metabike people do nice stuff with that.

The reversed mounting with the sram brifters works well on the t2 bars and the OzeroTT. I have small piano player hands and the grip is good; at 5'10" and a 43 xseam with my arms arms at just short of lockout (my comfort position) places the bars in a spot with equal leg clearance to the stock bars. I have big thighs. The bars give less turning interference than the stock drop bars. That configuration could benefit from a custom bar with a tad more bend. not much but a little; but it does work. (If I go with the stock bars I will cut some of the length off and that will solve that).

The wifes' Silvio shipped yesterday once that's here I can really do some comparisons I want to look at the layouts side by side with and without the 100mm extension installed. My immediate impression is that with the extension and the Ivan low bar layout; that the best options will be (1) brifters as bullhorns; (2) carbon bars modded like Ivan did, (3) stock bars or bullhorns. Without the extension then (1) bar end areo bars, or (2) tradition drops with a cut out.

The aero bar with the Drop profile is cool but it's just not comfortable on the low boom; the ends that stick back hit the wrists wrong; But upside down they give great leg clearance maybe the best; there may be something there for ideas. I will try them with the non extension bike but I think they are about rulled out.

More to come.

 

[Ivan]

Thanks the in-depth reporting

Thanks the in-depth reporting Ratz. Looking forward to hearing more and seeing pics.

After a month with my bars I really like them. Interference while shifting with legs is a non-issue. I am getting better at right turns and need to be more confident leaning the bike more rather than turning the steering. While I am VERY curious about bullhorns, I am also very happy with my current setup. Cutting the bars where I did worked out well. I am glad I didn't cut them more as this has opened up an unexpected third hand position where I grasp the drops where they point towards me. I find this surprisingly comfortable and good for relaxing stretches where I don't have to brake suddenly for traffic. When I am on the hoods, my arms and hands are in approximately the same position as it would be with bullhorns but so comfortable. With these drop bars I can shift in this position - something which was not so comfortable to do when on the hoods with the stock handlebar. Thus this drop bar with low handlebar position works well for me and I find it
comfortable.

Finally, I think there is something ergonomically to be said for the low bar layout as you have aptly named it. Especially low bar with drop bars which puts the hand position even lower than low bar with bullhorns. First, arms are lower, almost approaching USS position, resulting in less energy requires to keep arms up. Second, since my hands are near my hips the application of force when pulling on the bars is almost perfectly in line with pedal pushing force at the strongest point. I am thinking that this perhaps helps with climbing more than if the bars were higher.

John, I do not recall you mentioning something like this last point before. But wouldn't it be advantageous to climbing and pulling on bars that the hand grip location is near the hip rather than higher towards the knees?