Climbing hills on a V20?

[jond]

Lifting your buttocks off seat. Swinging that boom. Upper body bridging effort. Tucking your arms in and closing your mouth from all that panting. Inching forwards and backwards rigid ankle anklin. Power metering chicken legs. We are so lucky to have such a great bike to apply ourselves to in so many ways.

My particular style is the upside downunda yabbi pumper.

Interesting discussion.

I once had two df bikes same model same year one tier apart. See hand laid carbon v machine = 30 grams amd Durace v ultegra so bout 600 g difference. I was always faster on heavier bike go figure.

I reckon if you fill the vendetta with water it will flog the m5.

Let’s ride

 

[Osiris]

As you can see this is a really wide opened question based on what we have said already. A lot really depends on how you fit on each bike.
I am 5'7" and the Vendetta fits me like a glove. It is almost like it was made for me and my size. I a really low CdA on it.
If you have a longer torso your head stick up more and will have a lower speed per wattage figure. (on am M5 CHR maybe not stick up as much since is is built for taller people)

That could have a lot to do with it. I'm 6'-0" tall, so I probably fit better on the M5 CHR. I notice that on that bike, my head lies almost flat against the headrest, so that I'm looking down my nose when riding it. On the Vendetta, my head is nearly vertical. I can't say that I feel at all cramped on the V20, though. It's a pretty comfortable fit.

 

[super slim]

That could have a lot to do with it. I'm 6'-0" tall, so I probably fit better on the M5 CHR. I notice that on that bike, my head lies almost flat against the headrest, so that I'm looking down my nose when riding it. On the Vendetta, my head is nearly vertical. I can't say that I feel at all cramped on the V20, though. It's a pretty comfortable fit.

Adjust your Vendetta headrest so your head is at the same angle as when on the M5, and repeat your test!

 

[nobrakes]

I don't think Larry should be allowed to post his aero figures. He either has some kind of event horizon round him that removes air before he hits it, or he has some kind of telekinesis that allows him to move the bike without using measurable force.

 

[Osiris]

Adjust your Vendetta headrest so your head is at the same angle as when on the M5, and repeat your test!

The headrest is in the only position where it feels comfortable. Any closer, and it digs into my neck. If I move it further out, it pinches my helmet. It needs to be adjusted vertically to get the same angle that I'm used to on the M5, but it isn't designed to do that.

 

[LarryOz]

I don't think Larry should be allowed to post his aero figures. He either has some kind of event horizon round him that removes air before he hits it, or he has some kind of telekinesis that allows him to move the bike without using measurable force.

It is all smoke and mirrors! I still have to apply quite a force to make the Vendetta go 28mph on a flat course.
This is one of the few times in my life that being a little guy (5'7" with my shoes on) is an advantage. It helps me be really aero and tucked into the bike frame.
You also have to understand that to me 200 watts is quite an effort also since I do not weight that much (150'sh).
Really when we are all comparing wattages into speed we are comparing apples and oranges. We should really be comparing Wts/Kg for a given speed. That might bring us all a lot closer together.
So for my 25mph, I use 200watts/68kg = 2.94 W/Kg, and also the most watts I can do for an hour straight is only about 270, which is only 3.97, so call it 4 W/KG.
... and then their is SIR Bradley Wiggins - 6'3" and only 153lb - FTP 400 = 400/70 = 6.3 W/Kg - Makes me feel week just thinking about it.
But that is why the guy can pedal an upright bike for an hour and average over 35mph. It would be great to see what he could do on a Vendetta! haha

 

[benphyr]

...It needs to be adjusted vertically to get the same angle [as] the M5, but it isn't designed to do that.

Hi Osiris,

I believe there is an upgrade headrest that has much more adjustability because Jason Perez @RojoRacing had the same issues of adjustability so he crafted a better one and now it is an available upgrade from Cruzbike. (Someone correct me if I have the details wrong.)

 

[nobrakes]

It is all smoke and mirrors! I still have to apply quite a force to make the Vendetta go 28mph on a flat course.
This is one of the few times in my life that being a little guy (5'7" with my shoes on) is an advantage. It helps me be really aero and tucked into the bike frame.
You also have to understand that to me 200 watts is quite an effort also since I do not weight that much (150'sh).
Really when we are all comparing wattages into speed we are comparing apples and oranges. We should really be comparing Wts/Kg for a given speed. That might bring us all a lot closer together.
So for my 25mph, I use 200watts/68kg = 2.94 W/Kg, and also the most watts I can do for an hour straight is only about 270, which is only 3.97, so call it 4 W/KG.
... and then their is SIR Bradley Wiggins - 6'3" and only 153lb - FTP 400 = 400/70 = 6.3 W/Kg - Makes me feel week just thinking about it.
But that is why the guy can pedal an upright bike for an hour and average over 35mph. It would be great to see what he could do on a Vendetta! haha

200W gets me around 21 mph, you are light years ahead of me. I have a lower BB and am 6'2 with big feet. I also like the wide bars on the V so would not go to something thinner. I am thinking of going to midsole cleat position to raise the feet higher and shorten the boom a bit which would also raise the BB a little. My body tells me midsole is the way to go.

If I could get 4W/KG I would be pretty happy. To get there I would need to raise FTP by 10W (currently 290) and lose around 4KG (currently 79). It is my target and I'm getting there! As an aside I always wonder why people never add the bike weight to the W/KG figure, that would make it easier to compare riders, no? It's a little bit arbitrary if we're riding bikes with different weights.

I think climbing on the V is helped by not lifting the BB too high, so I'm quite happy where it is on my build (standard chainstay). It's probably around 3 or 4 inches lower than what a lot of you guys have.

 

[nobrakes]

Hi Osiris,

I believe there is an upgrade headrest that has much more adjustability because Jason Perez @RojoRacing had the same issues of adjustability so he crafted a better one and now it is an available upgrade from Cruzbike. (Someone correct me if I have the details wrong.)

I have the performance adjustable headrest and it is very good. Adds a little bit more weight to the bike with the hardware to adjust the angle of the rest but it allows you to really dial in where you want the cushion to be.

 

[Osiris]

Hi Osiris,

I believe there is an upgrade headrest that has much more adjustability because Jason Perez @RojoRacing had the same issues of adjustability so he crafted a better one and now it is an available upgrade from Cruzbike. (Someone correct me if I have the details wrong.)

Funny you mention it. I just ordered one.

 

[Osiris]

200W gets me around 21 mph, you are light years ahead of me. I have a lower BB and am 6'2 with big feet. I also like the wide bars on the V so would not go to something thinner. I am thinking of going to midsole cleat position to raise the feet higher and shorten the boom a bit which would also raise the BB a little. My body tells me midsole is the way to go.

I think 200 watts gets me to 21 mph also. We need more data from people our size (I'm 6'-0"). Perhaps that accounts for the huge power/speed discrepancies I've seen between my numbers and Larry's.

 

[Osiris]

One could always use the certified wind tunnel data between Larry (Small), Jim (large), and Maria (tiny).

Where can I see this data?

Hopefully I'll get my V20 back by this weekend. I'm thinking of taking it and my M5 to a steep hill and filming my coast down tests on each bike, complete with telemetry data. Might be interesting to take the M1 Low Racer out there as well, although I'd probably just crash it again.

 

[Osiris]

The report is on the Cruzbike site you are on right now. Here's a quick link Jim also published the raw data (verified and unverified numbers) at one time. I have a copy somewhere but I'm sure someone can redirect you to the online site. Huge kudos to Cruzbike for spending the money to get and share the actual verified data.

Indeed. Makes me wish I'd been there to participate. Compared to my own results obtained while riding, it looks like with the same Velocity wheelset it takes me about 50 more watts to go 24 mph than it does for Maria. Having identified the problem, the solution is now clear. I just need to find a way to shrink myself down to her size.

Also of interest was seeing that the full disk in back only resulted in a net gain of ~5 watts. That explains why I saw no noticeable increase in speed after switching to a full disk rear wheel on either my Bacchetta or M5.

 

[ElyDave]

Interesting wind tunnel testing of Graeme Obree's various bikes and positions. Hope the video works in the US as well. He also made a very unconventional approach to Battle Mountain a few years back

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4413/...letter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

 

[Osiris]

Interesting wind tunnel testing of Graeme Obree's various bikes and positions. Hope the video works in the US as well. He also made a very unconventional approach to Battle Mountain a few years back

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4413/...letter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

Fanstastic find, Dave! I'm going to post links to it on other bike forums.

 

[nobrakes]

His prone record on the beastie was inspirational. I highly recommend the documentary made recently if you haven’t seen it.

 

[ElyDave]

Yes, the Beastie documentary was great

 

[ed72]

Happy to oblige. I've been collecting data for years on two Strava segment, just to compare the aerodynamic efficiency of my various bikes and recumbents. The first of these is a 0.6 mile segment with an average slope of -1%. It's surrounded by heavy tree growth and a tall berm on one side, which virtually eliminates wind. I cross the starting line at 15 mph and coast to the bottom, noting the top speed each bent reaches. The results have been extremely consistent: the V20 is dead even with my CA2, both topping out at 19 mph. The M5 consistently tops out at 21.4 mph. Now, 19 and 21 mph is still pretty slow, and since since drag increases according to square of your velocity, the M5's aero advantage would increase as speeds go up. Another segment I've used is roughly one mile in length, and perfectly flat. This segment isn't quite as good for consistency, owing to the fact that my speeds will differ depending on my energy level, but have a look at this: Average speed on the V20 @ 327 watts was 24.7 mph. Average speed on the M5 @ 219 watts was 27.3 mph. I've only ridden that segment twice on the V20 so far, so I'll want to get more data, but the difference I've seen between it and the M5 roughly coincides with what I'm used to seeing when comparing the M5 to my CA2. I think it's safe to conclude that the CA2 and V20 are in the same class when it comes to straight line speed, although the V20 has many advantages over the CA2 in other ways.

I only need 245 watts to go that fast.......on my upright bike.....Cervelo S3 with clipons and 60mm rims and skinsuit of course.

 

[ed72]

Accurate and relatively quick CdA measurements can be made using the Chung method.

Larry is incredibly slippery on the V20.....maybe 0.140 plus or minus. It is obvious he put in the work to find these aero gains. They aren't free.

327 watts to go 24.7 mph is like a 0.34 CdA, which like riding the hoods on a road bike (DF). Something is seriously wrong with positioning or something.....can we get pictures of the v20? No way a V20 is that slow. Odd.

Not sure if anyone is familiar with the chung method, there might be better explanations out there. goldenchetah has the tool needed assuming one has a power meter

http://fitwerx.com/ask-fitwerx-article-archive/your-power-meter-is-the-best-wind-tunnel-available/

 

[Osiris]

I only need 245 watts to go that fast.......on my upright bike.....Cervelo S3 with clipons and 60mm rims and skinsuit of course.

Larry is incredibly slippery on the V20.....maybe 0.140 plus or minus. It is obvious he put in the work to find these aero gains. They aren't free.

327 watts to go 24.7 mph is like a 0.34 CdA, which like riding the hoods on a road bike (DF).

I wasn't wearing a skin suit, but to go 25 mph on my Specialized Venge took 350 watts. On my Trek Speed Concept 9, 25 mph required a steady output of 300 watts, which is exactly what another local TT racer's average speed/power was in a 40 K race. He and I are exactly the same size (6'-0" tall, 175 lbs).

Something is seriously wrong with positioning or something.....can we get pictures of the v20?

It's a stock V20. It was Ben Tomblin's race bike, but he put the stock front wheel back on it, which aside from the Ventisit seat pad were the only non-stock items on the bike.

No way a V20 is that slow. Odd.

It was definitely that slow on the day in question, although I have only two runs on that particular road so far on the V20. We've been plagued by high winds, so it may be some time until I have enough sample runs to get a reliable average.