Climbing speed comparison: Silvio vs. Vendetta

[charlesw]

Hi!

To those that have experience with both Silvio and Vendetta, how much slower is the Silvio when climbing normal hills, rollers, etc?

I ride a Vendetta now with a compact double and 11-36 rear cassette. But I'm finding that there are still some really big long (small mountain-like) hills that I just can't keep it going. I get down to about 6 mph and stall.

As far as I can figure, the stalling has to do with two issues: 1) my weight to available gear inches, 6'4" 235lbs (1.93m, 107kg), and 2) balance issue whilst reclining so far back on the V at such slow speeds -- yes, I've tried the sit-up technique, but I can't sustain it very long, although it *does* help on particularly short steep sections where failure is not an option.

I do great climbing normal hills and rollers and such. In fact, usually equal or a little faster than DF riders who are with me.

So I've been thinking about the Silvio. If it is at least close to the V on climbing speed on the "normal hills" and rollers, etc, that would be good. And if it could fit a 130/74 BCD triple (see other thread in Silvio forum), I hopefully would be able to keep the bike upright on the monster hills while I drag my heaviness up the hill at 4 mph.

Although, then I consider that on my last 400k brevet I had to resort to walking the V up the big hills at 3.5 mph (walking pace). So maybe I should just suck it up and walk when I need to walk. I admit that it felt good to get off and walk a bit on a ride as long as a 400k.

Any advice?

Thanks!

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi Charles,
I ride neither a

Hi Charles,

I ride neither a Silvio nor a Vendetta, so take that into account when weighing the worth of this post.

I think you're right about the causes of your instability. I'm a little smaller than you (couple of inches, couple of kilos), and I can comfortably go 3 mph without problems on my Sofrider. My bike has a much higher seat angle and goes much lower in gear inches (I've got a 22T granny gear compared to your 34T and my 32T rear cog isn't that much smaller - all and all an almost 40% effect.

I believe there is at least one triple that you can fit on the Vendetta. I'm guessing the granny gear would be a 30T which isn't as small as I'd like, might give you enough extra room.

Since most of my post almost seems reasonable up to here, let me deviate. On this post on BROL, the author describes how he uses a blood pressure monitor to help him "bridge" (lift his butt out of the seat) so that he can apply more power to pedals. He also mentions how he has one on the back of his seat as well. These are adjustable while you are riding and I could imagine that something like this might help with you on long hills.

Finally, part of me wanted to point out that with practice, you can learn to go more slowly. But when climbing hills, at some point your body just says "enough" and you stop or fall over (and I usually vote for stop). So I will refrain from suggesting that.

Good luck!
Charles

 

[randyspann]

Slow speed climbing

- Slow speed climbing: practice, practice, practice. In time you will be able to go slow. Yes, you need a really small granny gear and then spin it up the hill.

 

[randyspann]

Silvio vs. Vendetta

- I responded to your other post. I would think the lighter weight of the V would make it better for climbing than the Silvio. In my opinion, going from the Vendetta (the very best recumbent) to the Silvio (the second best) would be a step down. The advantage of the Silvio is the suspension, but you gain pounds to have it. Your rolling hills performance would not be as fast on the Silvio.

 

[charlesw]

Randy,
Yeah, I realize the

Randy,

Yeah, I realize the Silvio would be a step down. But I think it's more a step down like moving from a Lamborghini to a more practical Mercedes AMG performance sedan.

I'm going to try the Shimano Ultegra triple. Hopefully the 30t vs 34t inner will be just enough to get my big butt up the monster hills.

Otherwise, like I said, walking won't be much slower.

The only other thing that interested me in the Silvio for randonneuring is that the more upright position would make it easier to navigate strange towns I've never been in before. The extreme recline of the V is great for pounding out the miles, but sometimes make urban navigation difficult at 4am on mile 223 of a 250 mile ride.

 

[charlesw]

Randy,
Re: slow speed

Randy,

Re: slow speed climbing. Yeah, I realize it's practice practice practice. However, I think I reach that point where I can't keep my cadence RPM high enough and the slow mashing starts pulling the steering all over. I find that if I concentrate really hard it's manageable. But then if a big dump truck comes by, I lose concentration and have to bail lest I get squished.

 

[Andrew 1973]

Silvio isn't a "Step down."

"The only other thing that interested me in the Silvio for randonneuring is that the more upright position would make it easier to navigate strange towns I've never been in before. The extreme recline of the V is great for pounding out the miles, but sometimes make urban navigation difficult at 4am on mile 223 of a 250 mile ride."

It's more of a case of horses for courses. Charlesw said it well here; the Silvio has its purpose as the Vendetta has its purpose. I think both bikes could compliment eachother well if one's budget, garage space and spouse would allow.

 

[randyspann]

charlesw...

- No substitute for small granny gear to keep the cadence up when climbing. Otherwise you WILL run out ot steam!
I kind of have the same problem as you: 6' 6" 250 lbs. Live in hilly country. Love the Silvio performance on the rollers! Use the 26t front chainring for the hills. Takes a lot of practice to ride slow at high cadence. I would rather have the Vendetta, but my roads demand the suspension of the Silvio.

 

[randyspann]

John T.

- Wanted: Vendetta with suspension!

 

[Jim Parker]

Done a lot of both


I've learned a lot about hill climbing in the past couple of years.

A compact double crankset and an 11x36 cassette with a 175mm crank and 700c wheels gives you an amazingly low gain ratio of 1.8. With a cadence of 65 rpm, your speed will be 4.8 mph (I have a spreadsheet that does all these calculations).

By using a Powertap wheel on almost all of my rides, I've learend what power levels I can sustain and for how long. The best climbers are light and have light bikes. The power requirements to climb at a given speed are proportional to the mass being elevated. I can expend about 240W for 20 minutes. If the hill is very steep and long, and I need more than 240W of power to maintain minimum speeed, then it is smarter to walk the bike. Maria's coach advises that when in a long race (e.g. 12 or 24 hours) you only have a limited number of "matches to burn" and it's better to walk the bike when the power requirement goes way up.

In reality, we rarely walk our bikes, but in a long race, it's probably better to maintain a steady, sustainable power output, than overdo it early and lower your performance later.

Charles, the gearing you have should get you down to the 5 mph range. You might need some more practice to be comfortable at those slow speeds, or be in better shape. Much below 5 mph, you might be better off walking.

The Silvio is a good climber, too, but it weighs several more pounds than the Vendetta, so you'll need a few extra watts to climb at the same speed.

Jim

 

[John Tolhurst]

Masterful post, Jim.

Masterful post, Jim.

 

[mickjordan]

Randonneuring

As someone who is eventually hoping to convert to a Cruzbike for randonneuring events, I bought a Silvio because it seemed to me to be much more a "rando" style bike than the Vendetta. You don't find many racing style DF bikes on your average rando ride, quite the opposite in fact. It's all about comfort, stability, robustness. So to me the Silvio with its suspension, ability to take a rack, more upright position, but good performance, seems to be the ideal rando Cruzbike. The Vendetta I would imagine using on a century/double century ride where I just wanted to go as fast as I can and don't need to be self supporting.

 

[charlesw]

Mick, I agree to a point. But

Mick, I agree to a point. But actually the V has turned out better than I thought for rando rides. I'm very comfortable for the long haul, and actually I've thought the V might be a more comfortable bike for me on long hauls because it spreads my weight out on my back, whereas on the Silvio I fear a numb rear. So far the V's comfort has been great. It's not even a harsh ride like one would expect from a suspension-less AL frame, it's actually not bad.

As far as carrying things, I've been able to do well with my BentUp Cycles aerobag (or whatever they call it), and Fastback double-century bladder bags under the seatback as mini panniers. I put a Fastback Norback on the front boom right above the front tire to carry all my tools and bike-fixing gear. I only use the Fastback double-century side bags on longer rides that require more change of clothes -- like a 600k I'm going to do this weekend up to Lake Superior (very cold by the lake).

I've been able to mount all the lights I need, including a Supernova E3 Triple.

The only thing I desire, like I said earlier, is the ability to sit more upright for unfamiliar urban areas. And possibly the ability to run a 130/74 triple. But maybe I just need to train more.

 

[charlesw]

Jim, thanks for the advice.

Jim, thanks for the advice. I'll keep practicing down to 5mph. Might have to give up eating cookies at the controle points.

And get myself a PowerTap!

 

[Charles.Plager]

And a nice low granny gear!

And a nice low granny gear!

 

[fthills]

Roun

Charlesw , my experiences riding the V on hills and on brevets are practically identical to yours. Plenty of luggage space to be self sufficient , very comfortable on long rides, stalling at a speed somewhere around 6 km/ hr. on a climb. I can climb at 6 km/ hr but the return on investment in terms of energy expended vs distance covered means its often better for me to walk. I use walking as a form of rest for the muscles used in pedalling and I eat and drink so its a form of rescuscitation whilst still covering ground..

Mick , I agree with charles that the V is a really good rando bike. i would not be surprised if more long distance riders were to choose the V as their prefered bicycle, that we would see more reports in the future of excellent performances such as those by the Parkers .

For longer brevets 300 km and beyond I would favor the V. Its a faster bike on the flats, and down hills , I find it a more efficient climber than the Silvio ,

Having said that the two Cruzbikes have lmuch more in common with each other than with my RWD drive recumbent. Both Cruzbikes win hands down

Let's say the difference in speed between the V and the Silvio is 10 % and say it takes me 37 hours to do a 600 km brevet on the V without pushing things close to my limits of endurance and included in that is 90 minutes of sleep., on the Silvio the same ride would take more than 40 hrs all things being equal, which is more than the time allowed for 600km. This means to make it in time less sleep is possible. In distance terms by the time i've covered 600 km on the V the Silvio is some 50 to 60 km behind.

If the difference is only 5% between the two bikes it would take me just short of 39 hrs to do the same ride on the S . which is Ok but doesn't leave much of a buffer. So , if competition is important whether its against the clock or against other riders then the V would be my recommendation over the Silvio just on speed alone.., but really Mick I would have no regrets at all about the Silvio . Its an excellent bike.

The genius of the V is that it achieves its status without having to compromise on what it takes to make a great randonneuring bike.


Charles, I wish you well and good speeds on the 600 km .

 

[Andrew 1973]

If the hill is very steep and

If the hill is very steep and long, and I need more than 240W of power to maintain minimum speeed, then it is smarter to walk the bike. Maria's coach advises that when in a long race (e.g. 12 or 24 hours) you only have a limited number of "matches to burn" and it's better to walk the bike when the power requirement goes way up.

In reality, we rarely walk our bikes, but in a long race, it's probably better to maintain a steady, sustainable power output, than overdo it early and lower your performance later.

-Jim Parker

Jim,

So on what occasion would you find yourself actually walking your bike? A coworker of mine rode with you up Caesar's Head, and he said that he made it to the top not much ahead of you. With that in mind, what would it take for you to get off and walk?

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi Jim,
In reality, we rarely

Hi Jim,

In reality, we rarely walk our bikes, but in a long race, it's probably better to maintain a steady, sustainable power output, than overdo it early and lower your performance later.

I agree with this. What I've found on my Sofrider is that having a gear low enough to spin up the hills is crucial for me. When I didn't have low gearing, I had a lot more trouble "keep on keeping on" up the hill. And in my case, I'm not riding the <start jealous rant>crazy insane<end jealous rant> races you guys are doing, so my goal is to be able to ride up everything I see (even if that means that I have to stop, rest and catch my breath and start up again in a few minutes).

I'm not buying a Vendetta in the immediate future (I don't play the lottery, so that would have been pretty much my only hope... ). I'm very much willing to believe that I won't need to go as low in gear inches on a Vendetta as a Sofrider as it's both (a lot) lighter and more efficient. Even with that, given the hills near where my inlaws (and Randy) live, I don't think that a granny gear of 30 would be sufficient for me. (Of course, maybe in the couple of years it takes me to be able to afford the bike, I'll get enough improved that I would be o.k.).

So, for the Vendetta V2 or V3, can we figure out how to get a lower granny gear on it?

Thanks!
Charles

 

[Jim Parker]

more on climbing


I'm agreeing with a lot of the observations here. Understand that Maria and I have been out trying to push the limits on this new technology, and it's very gratifying, and exciting, to see other pioneers validating what we have discovered. I have no doubt that there is more to learn and more potential of this design to be tapped.

Andrew, the only time in recent memory that I pushed a bike up a hill was on a very steep ramp going up Mt. Cheaha in Alabama during the Heart of the South 200. I probably could have kept riding, but I came across my friend Ted pushing his Vendetta after he had taken a corner too fast and skidded out, getting a case of road rash. And this is a good lesson: a very talented rider and member of the elite Team Bacchetta, Steve Petty, passed me while I was walking. Many hours later, I was able to finish the race strong and hold Steve off for the win in the recumbent division. One DF rider beat me. If I hadn't pushed the bike (probably for about 10-15 minutes) I might not have had the energy reserve to finish strong.

FTHILLS is right on the money with the V as a great bike for brevets. Maria just did the "pre-ride" of the 1200K Taste of Carolina brevet with (reportedly) 50,000 ft of climbing (but probably 36,000 ft is more accurate). The official event starts on 8/29/12, but Maria got permission to ride earlier. She finished in 69.3 hours, which is faster than anyone did last year. Some consider this event a good test if you are considering solo RAAM. I rode the last seven hours with her on Friday night after I finished work at the hospital. I started the ride with her during a heavy rain, but it turned in to a gorgeous, cool night and we arrived at the final checkpoint at 1:34 AM. Maria had started the race at 4:15 AM on Wednesday.

And, I admit I will occasionally get "recumbent butt" on the Silvio, but never on the Vendetta. I like having my weight distributed more over my back.

Charles P., the Vendetta is not only lighter than the Silvio, but John designed the front end for extra stiffness. He put ring clamps in as wide a position as possible on the BB shell to stabilize the front end. The rings clamps can interfere with very small inner chainrings. The 30T inner ring on the Shimamo triple will fit, but the chain retention tabs must be cut off (which I do before shipping to customers). Maria and I prefer SRAM doubles, either compact or standard, with a wide range cassette. We currently run 11x32 cassettes. As I alluded to before, I don't see much point to have gearing that takes me at speeds less than 4-5 mph. If the hill is so steep that I have to drop to below 4 mph, probably better to walk.

I prefer the Silvio for rides where I need a substantial rack mounted, or if there will be a lot of stopping and starting through congested areas. The Vendetta can certainly navigate congested areas, but just takes a bit more concentration and use of the abdominal muscles to sit up tall while eye-balling traffic.

Jim

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi Jim,
As I alluded to

Hi Jim,

As I alluded to before, I don't see much point to have gearing that takes me at speeds less than 4-5 mph. If the hill is so steep that I have to drop to below 4 mph, probably better to walk.

I don't fundamentally disagree (although I'd put the cutoff at 3 mph). I'm from the flatlands of Illinois and as such I'm fundamentally confused about hills. I'm trying to get around this by practicing climbing them. And, as much as possible, I try not to "cheat" and walk up instead of riding.

One factor where we may differ is where we end up on the spin/mash scale. I personally am on the spin side of the spectrum and because of this prefer lower gearing. If you are less of a spinner, than having a transmission that doesn't go as low in gear inches is much less of a problem. (Crank length throws a whole other group of monkeys onto the problem, so I won't even bring that up.)

Cheers,
Charles