Climbing speed comparison: Silvio vs. Vendetta

Jim Parker

Cruzbike, Inc. Director
Staff member
cadence: spinning and mashing


Hi Charles,
Well if you want to go really low with the gearing, on either the Silvio or the Vendetta, the Ultegra triple plus a MTB rear derailleur such as the Shimano M592 will allow you to use a 30t chainring and a 36t cassette ring. That gets you a gain ratio of less than 1.6, or a speed of 3.9 mph at a cadence of 60. Or you can spin at 100 rpm and go 6.5 mph.

Maria and I both prefer longer cranks (175mm) and a slow cadence. My standard cadence is about 80 rpm and Maria's is a bit slower than mine. A slower cadence allows a rhythm that includes the upper body. If you watch the best DF riders climbing, sometimes they are down in the saddle spinning, and there is no rocking action. Then when they really want to accelerate up the hill, they slow their cadence, get out of the saddle, and rock the frame forecefully side-to-side. I know the common wisdom from all recumbent experts is to spin, not mash. As usual, Cruzbike turns everything upside-down or backwards.

On a RWD recumbent, to be your best at climbing, sprinting, and long flat pieces, all you need to be good at is spinning.

On a DF or Cruzbike, to be your best at climbing, sprinting, and long flat pieces, you need to be good at spinning and slow, rhythmic pedaling (mashing). Being able to slow your cadence and use the upper body to leverage the BB axle is one of the key advantages of DFs and Cruzbikes. In my opinion, that's why they climb better, pound-for-pound, than other recumbents. You can probably do just fine on a Cruzbike only spinning. But I think if you also practice and learn how to mash (Cruzbike-style) you will be able to leap up shorter hills much faster. On long climbs, like the climb up to Caeser's Head (7 miles non-stop climbing) spinning was all I had the energy to do.

Jim






 

fthills

Well-Known Member
Hi Jim,
Extraordinary effort


Hi Jim,

Extraordinary effort by Maria.

1200km in 69 hours with 12000 metres of climbing !!

This clamours for a thread/blog all of its own.

Really well done. From strength to strength.

And is that a hint about RAAM you dropped in there ? Team Vendetta RAAM 2013 ??
 

Andrew 1973

Zen MBB Master
Thanks, Jim.

I'm sure this is on behalf of all the forum members following this thread...

Thank you for you in-depth answers. I am not yet a Cruzbike owner, but understanding the bike, the mechanics of riding it and the techiniques that help are important to me as I plan my 2013 riding goals.
 

Ted

Active Member
Cadence, spinning, and mashing

Thanks Jim for your input on cadence, spinning, and mashing. It should help me tomorrow when I attempt to earn one of the red polka dot jerseys at the Little Mountain ride over in Kosciusko, MS. Regardless of the results, it should be a good indication of what to expect at the Texas Time Trials next month on the Silvio.
Ted
 

Jake

Member
MegaRange

Given the Vendetta's retriction on smaller chainrings it does seem that a wide ratio cassette would be needed to climb hills. The down side of this approach is that whilst riding on flats and rollers there are less suitable cassette sprockets to choose from to dial in the appropriate cadence, which will effect efficiency. Road cassettes generally have one tooth differences between the first 5 or so small sprockets which equates to about 7% change between gears. Wide range (mountain bike) cassettes tend to have two teeth differences which equates to 14% change which can result in having to settle for suboptimal cadence at some cruising speeds.

Despite cassette manufactures insistance on producing only set configurations it is possible to mix and match - see Sheldon Brown. On my bent I use a road cassette with the larger cogs replaced by those taken from mountain bike cassettes ( the larger cogs don't wear at anywhere near the rate of the small ones, so I can transfer them over when I replace the cassette / chain) . 11-12-13-14-15-16-18-21-26 combined with 52-39-24 chainrings gives close changes at cruising speeds (where I spend most of my time) and a few widely spaced granny gears down to 24". Fast, smooth gear changes at the back, not so much in the front though. The relativly wider percentage change between the larger rear sprockets helps reduce the number of gear changes whilst climbing, which is a good thing (unless you care to maintain full power through the gear changes).

Shimano did produce low end cassettes that followed this design - 7 speed MegaRange if memory serves.

Jake
 

randyspann

Well-Known Member
"reduce the number of gear changes whilst climbing"

Jake - I like your idea of cassette gearing setup. Close spaced gearing for cruzing and still low gearing available for the steeps.
I also appreciate Jim's explanation of his compact double setup. Much food for thought!
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
spot on

Jake,
spot on post.
It makes even more sense if you look at the power increase due to aerodynamic drag. Those 7% ratio steps are not 7% power steps, but 22% power steps. This explains why close ratios are important for tuning into the power you want to deliver, expecially (so it seems from personal experience) if you look for quite a narrow cadence.

The only change I would have made if I had been editor of your post would be to dispense with the notion of gear inches. There are too many readers using different length cranks for gear inches to have much consistency of meaning. Plus they are imperial, and so alienate all of us in countries outside the US who in fact measure things in metric. So it makes sense to go to a unitless measure such as a gain ratio - Sheldon Brown again.
 

Jim Parker

Cruzbike, Inc. Director
Staff member
various replies

Hi Ted,
Let us know how you did today, and if you have a new polka dot jersey.

Hi FT,
Maria is my hero. I haven't had time to do a write-up of her 1200K, but she completed the whole thing with a great attitude. She wasn't even trying to finish in a fast time, but rather testing herself with a RAAM-style sleep pattern. She handled about 4 hours sleep a night very well. If she decides to do RAAM, a stellar performance would not surprise me.

Hi Jake (and John),
I like the Megarange in concept, but the {emphasis added} "Fast, smooth gear changes at the back, not so much in the front though" is the kicker for me. I've just had too many problems with finicky triple front derailleurs. I prefer the quick rock-solid chainring shift with virtually no chance of chain derailment that a double gives me.

I can get my 7% ratio steps by varying my cadence a mere 6 rpm from an average of 80 rpm. If I was a pure spinner, I might be more dependent on a narrow cadence window. Being able to work comfortably at a cadence of anywhere from 70 to 95 negates the down side of bigger jumps between cassette cogs.

Hi Andrew,
Hopefully your condtion, lack of a Cruzbike, will be cured soon.

Jim
 

hyp05fxdl

New Member
You guys dont make it easy

I'm on the fence between a Silvio & Vendetta & the above doesnt make it an easy choice given I was 1st set on the Silvio (yes I know common sense dictates this being a Vendetta board that opinions will lean towards the Vendetta). I was talking with Tommy at FFR trike & I must say he's being very helpful as well. I have an Optma Lynxx I'm trying to sell and a Fuji Tour Pro a doner bike for components.

Greg
 

fthills

Well-Known Member
Greg , what sort of rides

Greg , what sort of rides interest you the most e.g long distance, racing ?
 

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
I'm on the same fence.
Right


I'm on the same fence.

Right now I ride a bit over 20 miles per day 5 to 7 days per week primarily on a mix of park roads and park multi use paths. Mostly solo but will ride with some friends every so often. I'm with Maria on this - I enjoy riding partly because it makes it easier to enjoy eating - balance right?
regular_smile.gif


I tend to want to maintain a steady push as opposed to an amble and lately have started using Cyclemeter to find out what I've been doing. I average 14-16 mph with top speeds in the 30s puffing around on an ancient DiamondBack Ascent Mountain Bike I bought back around 1987 or 88 with street rubber, a Topeak Dyanpak with too much junk in it and my 180 pound, 5 foot 7 inch (barely) self. I also will ride some of the same routes with my Mobiky Genius folder with 12 inch wheels with commensurate weird looks.
regular_smile.gif


I've commuted in the past when I could do so along mostly bike paths with some public road but to commute now would be 24 miles one way along mostly country roads with little to no shoulder and aggressive Michigan drivers - hopefully Jim and Maria only met the nice variety when they were up here recently. I am good with the commute distance but a bit leary of our drivers.

I'm mildly intrigued with trying some timed competition riding of some sort but right now it is only a mild interest. I did crew on a 24 foot racing sailboat for 6 years roughly during the 1999-2005 time frame and I was a competive gymanast, diver, and swimmer more than 35 years ago so maybe the competitive spirit has dimmed a bit...

-Eric
 

Jim Parker

Cruzbike, Inc. Director
Staff member
Choices, choices


Hi Greg,
Tommy at FFR has both a Silvio and Vendetta so he should be a good resource for you.

Something to consider, and this goes to Eric, too, is getting a Quest or Sofrider. I know this is a Vendetta forum, but those two bikes offer an affordable way to get into Cruzbike riding and you will be surprised how fast you can go. Years ago, Maria and I discovered our speed almost by accident on Sofriders. We had just started riding clipped-in on a tour across NC, and we were keeping up or passing pacelines of DF bikes.

The Quest or Sofrider are especially good if you often ride on shared use paths or trails. I think there is a decent second-hand market for them, so if you later decide you want a faster bike, you can sell it and get a Silvio or Vendetta.

Jim

 

Ted

Active Member
No jersey

@ Jim,
No red polka dot jersey ... at 1:58 (18.4 mph avg), it wasn't nearly fast enough ... but expect you and Maria would be top contenders for one of them next year if you wanted ... it would be neat to have and wear one of 'em :)

Still, it was a good primer (all but the last 10 miles in the rain) on the Silvio for the TTT next month. Got a feeling that it, the Tejas 500, is going to be just as much of a mental challenge as it is a physical challenge ...

Ted
 

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
Randonneuring sounds like fun

Randonneuring sounds like fun. I would enjoy hearing more about which Cruzbike you used and what issues you encountered with the model you rode and what some of the routes are like, the time it took for the distances you rode, and what you like about it.

The riding characteristics of a recumbent vs a DF that Dan Fallon describes In a 300k brevet from Flagstaff to the Grand Canyon on his blog along a dangerous route section is interesting but I'm curious if Dan was riding one of his Cruzbikes or one of his other recumbents and if the Cruzbike FWD, MBB configuration makes this issue easier to deal with?

I've linked Dan's complete post above. Below is the part of his blog post I'm referring to. How would the Vendetta handle this vs the Silvio? Quest? Sofrider? Any significant differences between bikes when gusting cross winds are involved?

"This section is difficult for any recumbent bike. Add to it the 3 - 5% incline and a gusting 20 mph wind from the west and it is more than difficult; it is potentially lethal.

The upright bike has far more balance capability than the bent. The upright rider can get out of the saddle and rock the bike back and forth with minimum of difficulty in order to ride a straight line.

The bent rider doesn't have that option. By design the recumbent bike and the rider are one unit. Under difficult conditions the bent rider has to be far more careful of road conditions, weather conditions and crosswinds."

This also brings my Motorcycle Safety Foundation training to mind where they train you in maneuvering around obstacles where one of the key points is to not focus on what is immediately in front of you but focus through the path you need to take, e.g. focus more on the exit out of a curve in front of you instead of the entrance to that curve. Does this apply in Dan's scenario and more generally woud following this technique help mitigate some of the wobbles that new Cruzbike riders experience?

-Eric
 

Nanda Holz

Active Member
Maybe an intermediate model

Maybe an intermediate model is needed? One with the seat angle half way between the Silvio and Vendetta (or just angle adjustable between the angles of both), with a rear Silvio style minimalist suspension to keep weight down and long range fatigue down? I always seem to climb better on bikes with more closed seating positions. A cool feature would be adjustable spring loaded seat angle, just hold a little lever under the seat while leaning forward to bring the angle up for a steeper climb, and drop it back down when you hit the fast flats :)
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
Hi,
I've heard of people


Hi,

I've heard of people putting air bladders on the backs of their seats so they can adjust the angle somewhat. Depending on how you set that up, that might be just the ticket!

Cheers,
Charles
 

randyspann

Well-Known Member
"Maybe an intermediate model "

- Nanda, I wondered about very low seat angle too, not just from all the above stated reasons. I wear vari-focal lens glasses...I wondered if the low seat angle would allow me to tip my head forward enough to see through the 'distance' part of the lenses. And yes, suspension. In my neck of the woods the roads are rough, in places, even for the suspension on the Silvio.
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
prescription sunglasses

Randy,
I have a second pair of prescription sunglasses (distance focus only) and that works well. Do they do two for one offers in your neck of the planet?
 
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