Comparing Vendetta to DF speeds

[RojoRacing]

Only my 3rd ride back outside but I figured what the hell, it's a nice cool day to go KOM hunting. I gave my lunch racer group a 3 min head start and I proceeded to attack the 20 mile strava segment with everything I had. The route is long gradual DH with a mini climb followed by a 20 min hill climb and then 4mile of DH to the finish. There is also a segment that starts at the same place but end at the summit of the hill climb which I kind of feel garner more kudos for owning. I had my garmin set to show the live strava segment so I knew at the start of the main climb I had about a 100 second lead but this KOM is owned by a very fast DF rider and I was prepared to loose tons of time on the climb. I slowly gobbled up piece of the noon group as it appeared someone must have attacked hard because the riders were strung out all along the climb early on which is rare. I finally caught which I thought was the lead 6 riders only to spot another 2 off the front another 50 seconds, and as expected it was the strongest two climbs of the group I was going to have to chase down. They were taking peeks back as they rotated to keep their pace up but I was inching closer with every passing moment. I finally caught and passed them with only 1/2 mile to go in the climb but it only gets steep the closer to get to the summit.

After making the pass I glanced at my live segment feed on the garmin and I still had a 30 second lead over the current KOM to the top but I started with a 2 min lead so I must have been bleeding off seconds rather quickly. With only 50 yards to go it showed me 8 seconds ahead so I kept pushing hard gasping for air best I could. I cresting the summit and started down the other side while taking a quick glance at the timer. It showed 2 second in red which means I was behind 2 seconds at that moment but I didn't know what it said 50 yards earlier at the summit. I kept pushing all the way down the hill opening up over a minute lead for the whole segment but I was still in the dark about whether or not I had gotten the segment that ends at the summit. After uploading to strava I had indeed destroyed the long standing full loop time but I had missed the KOM to the top by a mere 1 second. 45 mins of all out effort to miss out bu 1 second that's a raw deal for sure.

Could I have gone 2 seconds faster? probably but we're splitting hairs because I really was going all out and felt I paced myself rather well. I better bet would have been to remove my headlights and tail lights to save 1/2lb of weight. The main difference between my effort and the current KOM is I did the whole thing solo while I'm sure the other guy had a little help from the pack during the first 6-7 miles before he attacked and dropped everyone on the climb. Also wind plays a larger factor on this loop and I'd say the winds were in the typically unfavorable direction but not crazy strong like some days. In any event I'm glad I had a goal to shoot for and I'll be damned if I'll be denied a second time .

If you compared the flow of my segment vs the other guy you can really see just how much time I loose on each climb but I gain some of it back on the DHs. It seems a race that ends at the top on a mountain will always be to the Vendetta's disadvantage but not by a whole lot.

compare segment link
https://www.strava.com/segments/4403786/compare/MjE2ODA2MzUwNjQsMTE2Nzc0OTMyODE=

ride link
https://www.strava.com/activities/890259417

Strava flyby if you want to watch how the chase of the group unfolded.
http://labs.strava.com/flyby/viewer...QNVXMEDXlPxA1aM8RNS1HEDWQORA1wDkQNedgETXzURA1

 

[jond]

Power wise it is possible to match your power output despite being able to stand on the df. The vendetta is so good.

But the df will always have around a 3-4 kg weight advantage. Which will be a small disadvantage to the v on steep ascents. And 8 %. And above low gear 300 w. And above = wheel slip on v.

I am sure you will get the kom. Very soon. Good to see back on the road.

 

[anotherbrian]

I've assumed it was better to have the ride front loaded with climbing. Even weak DF riders can contribute to a pace line early on, but if you can let a big climb split apart a group on its own, there won't be much left on the other side to chase you down when you go by.

How much of the front group came in together at White Mtn? That's a long ways for people to get strung out.

You should consider trying to set a course record for Solvang. It's at 9:00:42, held by a 58-59yo. . Joel Sothern had a ride report posted for 2015 (?) that described his strategy, tho I can't find it now. More or less I remember it as being work with the group for the first 100mi+ then ditch the slow/leaches at the subsequent rest stops.

 

[RojoRacing]

Power wise it is possible to match your power output despite being able to stand on the df. The vendetta is so good.

But the df will always have around a 3-4 kg weight advantage. Which will be a small disadvantage to the v on steep ascents. And 8 %. And above low gear 300 w. And above = wheel slip on v.

I am sure you will get the kom. Very soon. Good to see back on the road.

I can actually avoid wheel slip to much steeper grades then the average Cruzbike rider so it's rarely a problem. I guess I could go out and attack the same loop on my DF bike but wind plays such a huge roll out there it's hardly an apples to apples test. TT style, so no drafting I believe the V would still crush the DF bike hand down. It really comes down to knowing how to ride it on a climb which apparently I've mastered. I'd still like to see more Vendetta riders taking these more mountainous rides and races on because it really feels like it's just me representing in the mountains. What I'm most happy about with today's ride was how high I maintained my power the whole time. I average 302 till the top which is great when you factor in how much of the first 8 miles you is DH and you can't pedal much. I averaged 317 on just the main climb which I think is like 15watts more than I best power output ever up that climb even if today my time for just that climb was 1 min slower than my best. The fact that I was one min slower up the main climb even though I set a new wattage PR means the wind was not in my favor. If the wind happens to be going the other way everyone will take it easy in the first part of the loop and attack the climb in order to score a PR with a tailwind.

 

[RojoRacing]

I've assumed it was better to have the ride front loaded with climbing. Even weak DF riders can contribute to a pace line early on, but if you can let a big climb split apart a group on its own, there won't be much left on the other side to chase you down when you go by.

How much of the front group came in together at White Mtn? That's a long ways for people to get strung out.

You should consider trying to set a course record for Solvang. It's at 9:00:42, held by a 58-59yo. . Joel Sothern had a ride report posted for 2015 (?) that described his strategy, tho I can't find it now. More or less I remember it as being work with the group for the first 100mi+ then ditch the slow/leaches at the subsequent rest stops.

Joel is such a cool guy to ride with I almost hate taking any of his records but If I recall I missed out by 20 mins on the only one of his records I attepted to break. Joel is a 60 year old 110 lb beast in human skin and never to be underestimated. My plan for any DC record attempt will always be to go out hard and fast and hold my own pace the whole ride. There are no other recumbents to deal with and the DF pacing given each type of gradient is so different I don't have to worry about them drafting me. Now if a race started on a gradual climb like say 2-3% and ended with a DH I'd be more inclined to daft the group and make a break on the DH.

As for White Mt. the group exploded as soon as they started up the climb on account of the extremely fast pace they needed to do to try and keep me in sight. I couldn't have setup my timing and pacing to destroy the groups plan at White Mt. any better then why I did. The DMD this year is going to be the real challenge because it's relentless with the climbs and the hardest two are at miles 130 and 150. Bonking and or cramping on sierra road at mile 150 is still a fear that comes to mind every time I consider going fast front the start of that race. I'm still trying to come up with plans A through C for the DMD because I sense I'll have a big target on my back for that one.

I asked Joel about Solvang and he said to skip it because it's not that great on account of all the city you have to ride through. He said the only reason he does it, it because of how close it is to home for him. I was going to do joshua tree and go for sub 9hrs but instead I'm going to use these next few weeks to really focus on attacking the hills even hard then last year because I have an even hard challenge than the Cal Triple Crown in mind for this year.

 

[jond]

Yes a smooth technique really helps uphill slippage. I reckon if you are a natural climber then it applies on all platforms.

I have never learned to love hills. A failing.

But rather fell in with the inherent strengths of the v with me. Easy but still cycling

Going fast is addictive. So is passing df riders.

But this weekend and next I am going to do some undulating.

Perhaps it is to do with home topography too. I don't like that I moved to frypan flats.

Do you attribute your power highs to the recent trainer work? Especially the virtual racing. .?

At this pointy end those kind of watts are 95% down to your headspace which must also be very encouraging for you Jason.

 

[LarryOz]

Strong ride Jason: Averaged 302watts for 45 minutes. Pretty good power test. Your HR was starting to max out I see as you reached for the summit. You are definitely the King of Recumbent mountain climbing.
Do you find yourself using your arms much like on a DF to gain more power climbing?

 

[RojoRacing]

Yes a smooth technique really helps uphill slippage. I reckon if you are a natural climber then it applies on all platforms.

I have never learned to love hills. A failing.

But rather fell in with the inherent strengths of the v with me. Easy but still cycling

Going fast is addictive. So is passing df riders.

But this weekend and next I am going to do some undulating.

Perhaps it is to do with home topography too. I don't like that I moved to frypan flats.

Do you attribute your power highs to the recent trainer work? Especially the virtual racing. .?

At this pointy end those kind of watts are 95% down to your headspace which must also be very encouraging for you Jason.

Me being outright fast is what makes me seem like a great climber when in fact climbing has always been my weakness and DH's my strength. What makes me different that a typical rider or racer is even though I know there are guys better at climbing than me I don't let that fact effect my mindset going into climbs. I view climbs just like flats, they are just slower but you are still turning the pedals the same as always.

I can safely say the zwift racing is what help with these gains the most. I only managed 3-4 trainer road sessions on zwift before giving up. Sorry @ratz I really did appreciate your help with that but it's still just not for me right now, I know you don't mind though.

Giving the group the 3 min head start helped keep my focus. In the first 20 mins it's easier to go hard and hold it and then at 20 mins when you would normally start to crack I had the group coming into sight so I refocused on them. I do believe if they had help me off another 1-2 mins up the climb I would have taken that other KOM. There was a slight sense of relief when I passed them so I may have lost 1-2 seconds in that moment.

Too get better at climb figure out what kind of positive outlook you want to relate to all climbs and focus on that leading into each one. As you approach a climb the worst thing you can do is let a sense of dread wash over you. I see and climb and I can't help but feel excited for the challenge ahead. I didn't always see climbs like that ether, it was something I had to work on.

 

[RojoRacing]

Strong ride Jason: Averaged 302watts for 45 minutes. Pretty good power test. Your HR was starting to max out I see as you reached for the summit. You are definitely the King of Recumbent mountain climbing.
Do you find yourself using your arms much like on a DF to gain more power climbing?

Cruzbike wobble only on two of the very short kickers but you'd be hard pressed to see the wobble. I will say that in the final 200 yards the pressure from my arms was all over the place. I was pedaling desperately and I found myself at one point pushing on the bars instead of pulling like of I was trying to stabilize myself in the seat or something. When I noticed this I went back to pulling but honestly it was all working about the same in the state I was in. I've reach over 190 several times in the zwift races so there's still a little something missing from my real world efforts, probably the lack of a group about to drop me I think.

 

[anotherbrian]

I don't think Joel has the course record any longer; another old guy he rode in with most have nipped it at the end last year.

Winning the Everest Challenge on a recumbent would be pretty epic. Are they even doing that anymore? The course got jacked up years ago anyways.

Trans Am bike race starts June 3rd. Could you make it back in time to recover for Terrible Two?

Alta Alpina has already been done on a recumbent. There'd be no glory riding it now (tho if you do, I'll wave from my DF).

 

[RojoRacing]

Whats the Everest challenge?

Trans Am would have to come after RAMM which would still come after RAW and which would still only happen after HooDoo. So yeah Trans Am better get in line :lol

I'll plan out some events I want to do and then fill in empty weekends as I go.

 

[trplay]

Me being outright fast is what makes me seem like a great climber when in fact climbing has always been my weakness and DH's my strength. What makes me different that a typical rider or racer is even though I know there are guys better at climbing than me I don't let that fact effect my mindset going into climbs.
I can safely say the zwift racing is what help with these gains the most.

Now a companion post from a slow rider to support the elite rider post. I'm a slow, low wattage rider who even goes beyond the word slow on hills. Zwift racing for 3 months has turned me into an animal on my local inclines. All joking aside my hill climbing speed has increased significantly on my local routes. I owe it all to Zwift racing and trying to keep up with Ms. Daisy. The best news is it's finally happening, next week I will have a trio of Zwift racing buddies to scheme and play in the Moose Zwift playground. This can do nothing but keep the improvements rolling.

 

[trplay]

Jason I sure hope the Hoo-Doo is your #1.

 

[RojoRacing]

I guess the guy who still hold the top spot on the segment in question today is a 2015 national road champion. Seems like our little noon ride gets quite a few national and worlds champs dropping in from time to time. Kind of makes me think our group has some damn fast roots or they hand out national and world champions left and right these days :lol

 

[anotherbrian]

There are a few guys around here (Sacramento'ish) I know of that crush most any of the Strava segments (it helps that they're always on the bike and hit segments in the worst conditions as well as the best), however they're just pack fill in cat 2 results.

NorCal weather is nice and you can ride year round. I think there are a lot of 350W / 4.5W/kg riders around, they're just too busy riding to mess with Strava.

 

[RojoRacing]

Yes strava is never going to to the all encompassing leader board. It is kind of cool when you get to use uber popular segments like Mt Diablo. Their are some serious pro contenders on that climb and I'm no where near the first few pages of that segment.

 

[anotherbrian]

ToC/Amgen probably killed most people's hopes of anything Diablo/Mines/Hamilton/Sierra related. They must have spared Patterson Pass.

I think the best/worst we have here is a U23 kid (Neilson Powless) that's riding in Europe now and had made most of the long climbs impossible. I did beat one of his mostly flat KOMs on my faired recumbent the other day, so woo-hoo, but that could have been done on a DF and a paceline that tried.

I've only ever ridden that Patterson Pass segment on the DMD, and it looks like I was at least 30min slower (pacing myself ... ya, and all those earlier miles, that's it). I just hate looking at it on the map since it'd be so much easier to go straight from Morgan Territory to Mines.

 

[bladderhead]

Another post from a slow, low wattage rider, who agrees with Jason. Hills slow you down. So slow down. I just try to maintain my (admittedly pathetic) pevel of effort all the way to the top. What are your gears for? I have a single chainwheel. All you lot have triple, and are stronger than me. Click your shifter.

 

[DavidCH]

Hit those hills. The fitter you get, the bigger the better. ​

Just remember the V loves rolling hills.

And try hitting those anti G spots and see how the gazelle jumps.

I luv hunting Roadies down. It's a pleasure. Up hills they have an advantage unless they are carrying a lot of weight. If you want to be on par with a roadie the only way of doing it is improving your fitness level.

 

[jond]

Me being outright fast is what makes me seem like a great climber when in fact climbing has always been my weakness and DH's my strength. What makes me different that a typical rider or racer is even though I know there are guys better at climbing than me I don't let that fact effect my mindset going into climbs. I view climbs just like flats, they are just slower but you are still turning the pedals the same as always.

I can safely say the zwift racing is what help with these gains the most. I only managed 3-4 trainer road sessions on zwift before giving up. Sorry @ratz I really did appreciate your help with that but it's still just not for me right now, I know you don't mind though.

Giving the group the 3 min head start helped keep my focus. In the first 20 mins it's easier to go hard and hold it and then at 20 mins when you would normally start to crack I had the group coming into sight so I refocused on them. I do believe if they had help me off another 1-2 mins up the climb I would have taken that other KOM. There was a slight sense of relief when I passed them so I may have lost 1-2 seconds in that moment.

Too get better at climb figure out what kind of positive outlook you want to relate to all climbs and focus on that leading into each one. As you approach a climb the worst thing you can do is let a sense of dread wash over you. I see and climb and I can't help but feel excited for the challenge ahead. I didn't always see climbs like that ether, it was something I had to work on.

Great sound advice Jason and I like your positive infectious application. Yes learning to love climbs is part of cycling and I do enjoy cresting . Smile and suffer is all in your head totally don't listen to the body. Unless you throw up lol that is.

There are no real shortcuts to fitness elite.

Your bike handling skills are obviously great and you can smash the downhills where most fear..

I do think if you sacrificed and succumbed to ratz you would see more targeted gains. Reckon with your peaky MTB endurance background you have improvement potential plus as a transition to steady state on road . For example Cadel Evans took a couple of years to reach his adaptation road leg potential. Total respect understanding of your position which works very clearly for you.

Still there are some natural climbers and it is horses for courses you can't avoid physiology at the pointy pointy end. That is where targeted training can help. Look how the Manx missile came back.

However with your head in the game new boundaries are broken. Five watts/ kg FTP well on the way and in reach for you Jason.

So long as it is fun and healthy then even the bad days can be good. Give it a thought re ratz. Learning to apply your positivity to targeted training could well expand your mind to suffer amazingly even more let alone the physical gains. Plenty of time to experiment.

I imagine you are missing the mtb a lot. I know I do.

Will there be any permanent issue as a result of your recent injuries?