Considering giving Cruzbike a second chance...

[Jesse Groves]

I am thinking about giving another try on a Cruzbike and wanted to get some opinions from people about the S40, or the prior iterations. I previously owned a V20 and rode it exclusively for about 6 months. I had a lot of comfort problems on it which were rectified by putting the Thor seat on with short chain stay and curved slider; doing that resolved the comfort issues while riding. However, I ultimately gave up on the V20 because of constant pain in my upper back/neck (cervical/thoracic area) that was present all the time, on or off the bike. It got to the point at the end where I was unable to find any comfortable position and my neck/back hurt even when lying down in bed or in a recliner; basically, it hurt all the time no matter what.

I sold the V20 in April of this year and bought an M5 that I have been riding since. After about a month off the V20, my neck/back pain finally went away. Looking back on it, I think I pulled a muscle in the cervical/thoracic region and that I never took enough time off the bike to let it fully heal, and that each time I rode thereafter, I would re-injure or exacerbate the injury so that it got worse and worse.

I am thinking about revisiting the Cruzbike for a couple reasons. First, other than the neck/back pain, I enjoyed the handling of the FWD and the interaction with the upper body. To me, the Cruzbike felt very "sporty" in its handling and was fun to ride.

Second, I recently did a ride with a lot of climbing...11,200 ft over 104 miles...the ride is called 6 Gap and is billed as the toughest ride in the Southeast US. I live in Florida, so this was the first time I rode anything with "real" climbs; there are some hilly areas in Florida, but the climbs here, while quite steep, are very short, so not very similar to what I encountered on 6 Gap. Overall, the M5 did ok on the climbs and I was able to make it up everything without having to walk, and was a BLAST on the descents FLYING past the roadies like they were standing still. However, I think I can do better on the climbs with the FWD drivetrain; my experience, based on comparison of power data taken at the pedals and at the drivewheel, is that I lose more power on RWD than on FWD...about 8% greater power loss (power loss on the RWD is about 10%, while only 1-2% on the FWD using the same power meters). Those comparisons I did were on relatively flat ground where I was riding exclusively in the higher gears, pretty much staying in the big ring and somewhere in the 15 to 11 range on the cassette. On 6 Gap, there were extended periods where I was in the 31 chain ring and 28 to 36 range on the cassette; I really noticed how mush grinding comes from the middle pulley in that gearing and I suspect that I was losing even more power in the drive train than what I experienced on flat ground. Long story short, I am interested in giving 6 Gap another try, but this time with FWD to see the difference on the climbs.

Finally, I am thinking about the S40 instead of V20 because I also want something that can mix in with road bike groups better. I was nowhere near as aero on my V20 as Larry or Kyle Larsen, but I was still too fast on it to ride with groups, plus, it is low enough that it makes it very difficult for roadies to draft me. I am very aero on the M5 and quite a bit faster on it on flat terrain and it is out of the question to even consider riding with my local group, unless I want to do a recovery ride and annoy them by being off to the side instead of pulling through.

So, I am curious to hear any opinions about riding the "road" versions of the Cruzbike with groups and how well it matches up. I dont expect it to align perfectly, but it does look like roadies would get a better draft and that I would also be a little slower on it, so that I can still get a workout even when riding with groups.

Thoughts? Comments? Maybe I am just N+1 crazy?

 

[DavidCH]

Be like quite a few of us then. One DF to be with your DF mates and a cruzbike S or V and make them suffer. Sometimes I give them a chance and just restrict myself to the smaller chainring. Even then they have to hunt you down in 3s.

(I have a V... I've never seen a V in a Crit race. I've seen riders hit 58kph in these and the corners they take at 40kph. Somehow intimidating - guess it's down to the company you keep)

After riding the Vendetta ... no pain. After riding the DF shoulders and neck and butt ache from trying to keep aero.

I had my Vendetta set up for many months with bars that would keep my arms stretched. Unfortunately I got tendinitis in my forearms so this summer I didn't ride the V. I have the bars much closer to me now and I don't get arm ache. So yes it's good to get off and recover. Anyways welcome back Jesse.

 

[3WHELZ]

If you were in the DC area, I would offer my S40 as a test ride. I do not think you would be disappointed with your purchase. The frame set has considerable versatility, allowing you to customize it from a performance bike to a graveler, and anything in-between.

I rarely do group rides. So, I can offer no value in that discussion.

 

[ratz]

Based on that it does sounds like a used S30 or a new S40 would suit you. Base on you height both of those are going to give you a good power basis with lower feet; and drafting behind is a little more possible, if the person can hold a wheel and their nerve.

 

[chicorider]

I ride both a V20 and an S40 (no pain with either one). The V is my road rocket while the S is my commuter. But even with a rack, bags, and fat 42mm wide tires, the S40 still scoots. If I were to set the S up the same as the V, it wouldn't be much slower, but the S would certainly be more group friendly. I also have a S30 (the last version without the front shock). It is set up nearly the same as my V, and I am consistently just a little faster on the S30, both on the flats and in the hills. I shouldn't be, for the S30 is heavier and less aero than the V. But I think that the steeper seat incline gives me more to push against, which goes to the pedals. I bring this up because with the S40's even steeper seat angle, what you lose in aerodynamics might be mitigated by the seat angle. I love the V, and for me it is the most comfortable of the three, but from what you describe, an S40 makes a lot of sense.

 

[joy]

I have a V20 and an S40. I also had an S30. I sold the S30 for the S40 because I wanted a Cruzbike for gravel, and wider tires didn’t fit the S30. I am not a racer. I ride fast on the V20 with my husband (Encore), 18/20 mph, but with friends, I ride the S 40. My older mixed group probably averages around 14 mph. The S40 fits in better, as it’s easier to talk while riding. It is also great on hills, I am usually first to the top. You can feel the power as you push into the seat, rather than pulling, as I do on the V20. I have two sets of wheels for the S40. I have 28 road tires and 35 gravel tires for our local gravel rail trails. It is good on both. I just did the GAP trail, 150 miles of gravel, and the S40 worked well. You are probably riding with faster people than I, but I think you’d love an S40. It is a perfect n +1 bike.

 

[super slim]

Welcome back to the PREMIER Hill Climbing Cruzbike family!!!

Here is a link to a discussion of the V20 and S40
https://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/v20-vs-s40-compared.12242/

A used S30 with no front suspension is an option as the main part of the seat is 33 degrees, and the shoulder area approx 45 degrees if using the very comfortable Thor seat.





A S40 with the standard seat of 40 degrees



A S40 with a thor seat, with the shoulder area at 60 degrees



If you were very comfortable on your stick bike, select a Cruzbike that matches the seat angle, BB height to seat height, and handle bar position.

If you can get to the Cruzbike retreat at White Lake NC from the evening of Thursday Oct 11 to the Sunday morning of Oct 14, you could try out all the combinations, and if you order a S40 before the end of Oct, then $250 of the $350 weekend cost comes off the bike price!

Happy Cruzbiking!!

 

[castlerobber]

A used S30 with no front suspension is an option as the main part of the seat is 33 degrees, and the shoulder area approx 45 degrees if using the very comfortable Thor seat.

That sure is a nice picture of the S30!

@Jesse Groves, that's my S30 in the top photo. I rode my first century on it a year ago with the stock seat/Ventisit pad and suspension neckrest, but never could get it completely dialed in. Did fine until about 75 miles, then it got uncomfortable. I like the S30 even better with the Thor seat/Ventisit. I definitely feel less dependent on the neckrest [not shown], and could go without one for short distances if I had to.

 

[LarryOz]

Hey Jesse,
First off - glad you are all healed up!

Here is my take on your options:
If you think you might like to ride the S40 with really wide tires on more of an off-road experience, I would go for that model, then you can still ride with the roadies at there level (at still amazingly fast speeds) and also have a little off-road fun if you want to. And yes - according to my testing on my S30 (4 years ago), I could make substantially more power on it (Tested: 350w for 5 min, as compared to 280w for 5 mins on the V20 - at exact same fitness level) - This means that you "will" be able to climb faster on the S40 (or S30) since you can make more power and since there is no ea\\aero penalty as such slow speeds.

"If" you do not think you would ever take advantage of the "wider" tire options of the S40, then I would get a V20 again and make an adjustable seat for it. (A few examples in the forum that are pretty slick). Plus I bet with someone's help like Alex, a super nifty design could be implemented. That way, you can have the best of both worlds. Lay it back at 20 for all out speed and racing against your recumbent buddies, and tip it up to 40 degrees to ride with your roadie friends at their level.

Like someone else said earlier - take a long weekend this weekend and come to the retreat. You should be able to try a good variety of models.
Take Care,
Larry

 

[RojoRacing]

DF bike for riding with DF friends and groups and bent for stuff you'd like to ride bent on. Like myself your too strong to ride DF group rides on a bent at any kind of pace that is going to net you a workout.

As for which model cruzbike to get I'd say if you want a bent to race then get the V20 that's obvious. If you want a commuter that has luggage mounts and better visibility get the S40. Maybe you can buy your old V20 back from who you sold it too

 

[bladderhead]

If you were very comfortable on your stick bike, select a Cruzbike that matches the seat angle, BB height to seat height, and handle bar position.

Yes. I think that if you do a lot of miles on one recumbent, then another one with different seat-height etc can be hard to get used to. This is going to make it even harder to learn to ride a Cruzbike. I was lucky that the Silvio has a similar riding position to the Grasshopper. I think it would be harder to learn to ride a Cruzlowracer - unless you already have a lowracer.

 

[Jesse Groves]

Thanks for the replies everyone; I am letting the idea percolate for now before I decide. Rojo, I get what you're saying about having a DF bike and I was thinking about that as well; however, it only took one ride to remind myself why I switched to recumbents in the first place. I am very uncomfortable on a DF, even after only 30 minutes to an hour of riding one. I have arthritis and nerve damage in my right wrist--I was hit by a car while jogging and my wrist bones were broken with such force that they tore through the tendons and skin on the top half of my wrist; basically, my hand was almost completely severed, but was still hanging on by the tendons and skin on the bottom half. The wrist structure was destroyed in the process. It was a hit-and-run and I would have bled to death at the scene if my wife hadn't been there...we never caught the driver. When the surgeons rebuilt the wrist, they tied a knot where the nerve ended; that knot has been very sensitive ever since; any vibrations in that area make it feel like my hand is being electrified and the decreased range of motion and arthritis in the wrist make the pressure of leaning on it worse. Anyway, long story short, when I ride a DF, I compensate for my right wrist by leaning more on the left wrist which then cause other problems and the whole thing loses its appeal very quickly.

SuperSlim, you posted a pic of the S40 with Thor seat with shoulder area at 60 degrees; I am assuming that is not the Sport version of the Thor seat, is that correct? I had the Sport version on the V20, but I guess it would not work with the S40?

Larry, 350w v 280w for 5 minute power is a HUGE difference! I don't think I have experienced any difference that significant between any of the bikes I have ridden when measuring power at the pedals (though they have all been reclined at 20 or lower). Instead, what I was talking about was difference in power between the pedals (Garmin Vectors) and the wheelhub (PowerTap) during the same ride on different platforms--the power loss measured between pedals and wheel is 8% less on the FWD as compared to RWD, which I think is why people feel more powerful on the Cruzbikes--because they are getting more power to the ground--not because they are pulling on the handle bars...but maybe I shouldn't open that can of worms in this thread lol!

 

[Gary123]

With a wrist in that condition, how do you manage a cruzbike?

 

[Jesse Groves]

With a wrist in that condition, how do you manage a cruzbike?

Riding the Cruzbike is not like leaning on DF handlebars; when riding the V, I mostly had my hands on the part of the hoods where the brake lever was, so it was more of a pull on the handlebars as opposed to pushing or leaning my weight. I did have some numbness and hot spots, but it was manageable.

 

[ed72]

Thanks for the replies everyone;

Larry, 350w v 280w for 5 minute power is a HUGE difference! I don't think I have experienced any difference that significant between any of the bikes I have ridden when measuring power at the pedals (though they have all been reclined at 20 or lower). Instead, what I was talking about was difference in power between the pedals (Garmin Vectors) and the wheelhub (PowerTap) during the same ride on different platforms--the power loss measured between pedals and wheel is 8% less on the FWD as compared to RWD, which I think is why people feel more powerful on the Cruzbikes--because they are getting more power to the ground--not because they are pulling on the handle bars...but maybe I shouldn't open that can of worms in this thread lol!

This is the first account of real data that I have read. If you used the same powertap and same garmin pedals on both the RWD and FWD, this is pretty conclusive to me in terms of drivetrain loss. By same, I mean that you swapped the wheel from one bent to the other and the pedals from one to the other. One powertap hub can read 4% difference to the other (mine) and similar variation can be seen with the pedals.

 

[Jesse Groves]

This is the first account of real data that I have read. If you used the same powertap and same garmin pedals on both the RWD and FWD, this is pretty conclusive to me in terms of drivetrain loss. By same, I mean that you swapped the wheel from one bent to the other and the pedals from one to the other.

Yes, that is exactly what I did. I rode on the RWD bike; I had the Garmin Vector pedals hooked up to a Garmin Edge 1000 and I had the PowerTap hooked up to my trusty Garmin Edge 500. The power measured at the pedals on that ride was 10% higher than the power measured at the wheel. Using the exact same setup on the V20, the power at the pedals was only 1.5% higher than the power at the wheel. These measurements were reproduced on numerous rides with consistent results.

Therefore, regardless of variations between the two power meters, the difference still shows a 8% greater power loss for the RWD as compared to the FWD.

My thoughts are that RWD has much less efficient power transfer for three reasons: 1) non-triangulated support for the bottom bracket allows more flex; 2) long chain is inherently less efficient; and 3) change of direction of force where the chain goes under the middle pulley to align with the cassette.

 

[ed72]

Balor would probably have better insight. I don't think boom flex is a factor. Three times the length of chain could be a factor especially if the chains are not perfectly clean and well lubed based on my experience. Maybe the pulley?

My head is killing me today and can't think straight. I assume you tested the V20 vs M5.

8% loss with 150 W input noodling along at say 22 mph is 12 watts. 8% loss on a short 1 km 10% climb at 350 watts is 28 watts or about 1 km/hr slower.

In short....wow. (I had to confirm you were using the exact same identical PMs not just the same brand and models because 8% variance just due to the meters would not surprise me)

 

[Jesse Groves]

Balor would probably have better insight. I don't think boom flex is a factor. Three times the length of chain could be a factor especially if the chains are not perfectly clean and well lubed based on my experience. Maybe the pulley?

My head is killing me today and can't think straight. I assume you tested the V20 vs M5.

8% loss with 150 W input noodling along at say 22 mph is 12 watts. 8% loss on a short 1 km 10% climb at 350 watts is 28 watts or about 1 km/hr slower.

In short....wow. (I had to confirm you were using the exact same identical PMs not just the same brand and models because 8% variance just due to the meters would not surprise me)

Actually, the comparison was between the V20 and my stick bike; I have not tested the M5 yet, though I plan on doing so eventually. I took almost an exact 9% hit to my power numbers when I switched to the M5 from riding the V20; so I am assuming similar power loss between the pedals and wheel on the M5.

 

[jond]

Read interesting article on gcn with sy souping up his superbike for a kom tilt.

Any chain change direction causes losses.

He fitted larger jockey wheels to mininmise direction change through rear mech. Etc saved about 8 watts total I seem to remember.

Recent article.

Can’t beat cruzbike chain lines.

 

[Jesse Groves]

Read interesting article on gcn with sy souping up his superbike for a kom tilt.

Any chain change direction causes losses.

He fitted larger jockey wheels to mininmise direction change through rear mech. Etc saved about 8 watts total I seem to remember.

Recent article.

Can’t beat cruzbike chain lines.

I have seen them talk about that on GCN as well. Keep in mind that the part of the chain traveling through the deraileur pulleys is not even under load; whereas the part of the chain going through the mid-frame pulley on a RWD bent is under direct load from the crank.