Cross-Training Bent & Upright - Better, Worse, or Neutral?

[Derek]

I’ve noticed several strong riders (Tor, Ed, Cliff, Kyle, etc) seem to ride both diamond frames and Recumbents interchangeably throughout the year. To those with experience, do you think that riding both makes you a stronger recumbent rider, a less strong one, or has no impact? (And most importantly - why?)

As a former competitive swimmer, I’ve always pondered it in terms of cross-training different strokes. If you want to get faster at freestyle, practicing intensely in any stroke will strengthen your engine and thus make you faster at freestyle, but maximum benefit will be derived by cross-training freestyle and butterfly due to the similarity of the strokes and the fact that butterfly is harder. Less benefit would be derived from backstroke since its technique diverges more. Breaststroke is least beneficial because it shares no similar movements with freestyle.

Those with experience, what say you?

 

[chicorider]

Eight years ago, my back could no longer take it on my diamond frame road bike. I switched to the V20 and that became my only road bike. I still rode upright for mtn. biking and an occasional gravel ride. My lower back pain completely went away because of the V, and I figured my days on a diamond frame road bike were done.

But as my gravel rides started becoming longer, I noticed that my solid, I-could-do-this-all-day-long bent legs fatigued pretty quickly when riding upright. So I worked a diamond frame road bike back into the mix about six months ago, with the idea that if I kept rides to 50 miles or less, and alternated between it an the V, I should be able to keep my back happy enough. That is indeed how it has been.

For me, miles on the diamond frame seem to translate pretty well to the V, while V miles not quite as well to the D-frame. If I do toggle back and forth evenly, my fitness for both ride styles seem to hold solid just fine. If I have a longer road ride coming, like a century or double century, I will mostly ride the V for my pre-event prep. If I have a longer gravel ride coming, I will ride the D-frame road bike for my prep. When the event is over, and I switch over to the other format, I will notice that I have lost a little--"I don't quite have my bent legs after all that upright riding," or "My upright legs are a little weak after all those recumbent miles." Still, it doesn't seem to take but a ride or three to bring it all back up to snuff as I alternate back and forth.

The D-frame bike does make me more fatigued, mile for mile. A vigorous 30 to 40 mile upright ride might equal an 80 to 90 mile effort on the much more efficient V. I've done 10 hour double centuries with 10,000+ feet of climbing on the V, and felt fresher in the end than on some 70 mile gravel rides with 5,000 feet of climbing, when I limp home feeling pretty destroyed. The slippery V just gobbles up miles. But if my ride time window is shorter, I can bust out a good 35 miler on the D-frame and get a solid workout. It's aerodynamic inefficiency becomes a time saver when time is tight.

What surprised me, though, is that I enjoy riding both kinds of bikes almost equally. The D-frame bike is slower, but it's good for group rides, and the way it handles is easier and fun. The V can be a bit more of a handful to handle, but oh, the comfort, and the all-out speed is addictive. If, for some reason, I had to choose between the V and my D-frame, the V would win easily. But alternating between the two keeps each of them feeling fresher in my mind. I am glad that I have them both.

 

[Derek]

That’s very helpful perspective @chicorider. I am surprised to hear it is only a couple rides into switching from one to the other that the other feels strong. The little MTB riding I have done in the past left me with the feeling that a diamond frame is a whole different set of muscles (more hamstrings/glutes vs V taxing mostly the quads) which left me assuming it would take quite a while to build up strength on an upright. It’s a good surprise and I hope it plays out thay way for me too. Just pulled the trigger on a road bike today (for all the same reasons you mentioned above - group, freshness, and lacking time); we shall see how it goes.

 

[chicorider]

Excellent! I'll be interested to hear about your experience.

 

[vosadrian]

I ride DF and V20 about the same time per week. I tend to ride harder on the DF and cruise more in the V20. I also swim and walk/run. For me I find my body copes better with varied training as I seem to struggle with joint issues if I do too much of the same thing. DF hurts my back, but I seem to trouble my knees and hips more on the V20.

I was surprised last year when I was invited to a casual TT even of 4 laps of a closed park trail (about 5 mins a lap). I had not ridden very hard on the V20 in some time and thought I would struggle. I was riding fairly hard on the DF. I surpised myself by putting out my biggest power numbers over 20 minutes I had done on the V20 despite having done no rides near that power on the V20 in months. I was also very close to the DF power I did on the same course only 2 weeks earlier (but I beat my time of the DF with the V20 by 2.5 minutes and beat the next DF on the day by about 3 minutes)

I figure that the DF training must help the V20.

 

[ccf]

I find my DF useful for V20 training for two reasons. The first is that it is generally easier to make a little more power when riding against resistance like a hill or the wind. Compared to the V20, riding my DF is like riding into a constant headwind. So I end up working a little harder on the DF and getting a bit more kJ for the same distance. The second is that the DF affords me the opportunity for group rides with younger, stronger riders who push me to my limit.

 

[Frito Bandito]

My road bike just serves as a parts runner, but I probably put about half as many miles on my Merida 150 commuter per year as I do on my V20. Even though virtually all of that mileage is on city streets and with traffic, hills, traffic lights and more, I do tend to turn each trip on it into something more than just getting from point A to point B. I think this is 1 of the things that helps my fitness a lot more than I normally think. A two-week cough had me off the V20 for far too long, but my 2 subsequent rides were not disappointing at all. This Winter I plan to spend a lot of time with my V20 on the trainer instead of +95% of my rides being outside.

 

[CruzinCambridge]

I moved from my road bike in 2020 to an S30 in 2022 after a year off with back pain. 2023 I've been riding both. I did about 1,100 miles on the S30 on the trainer, which set me up well for spring randonneuring. I did about 2,500 miles on the S30 and 1,100 on my road bike.

My observations:
- S30 on the trainer is great for building base endurance... but it's hard to train for power/hills. I think I had some low speed high intensity intervals in my plan, but nothing to match the experience of climbing. It's hard to simulate the muscle stabilization required on a Cruzbike when faced with high resistance. Hills kicked my but in my spring riding... but that's not anything new.
- My body geometry on the recumbent is different from the road bike. I'm able to get my leg length/knee angle dialed in, but my hip angle is more open on the recumbent. This means the glute, hamstring and quad are engaged at a different part of their range of motion from the road bike. In zone 2 it doesn't make a big difference, but climbing hills, those muscles aren't used to the load in that range. I straining my hip flexors. The more open angle might be more efficient, but it isn't how I had trained for the prior 20 years and doesn't combine well for aerodynamics on the roadbike. Getting a gravel bike where I'll likely be a little more upright and there may be less difference.
- Moving back to the road bike, from the Cruzbike, I was not in as good shape to climb out of the saddle. I hadn't recruited my muscles in that range of motion, but I was super strong doing high cadence sit and spin up the hills.
- Pro Tip! Don't forget you can't pedal through corners on a traditional road bike! Whoops!
- Like Chico, I was reluctant to push myself too far on the DF bike. But I find if I do my pre-hab muscle activation, I'm been able to do 85 mile rides on my road bike pain free (sorry, I mean without back pain). It takes some concentration on the bike to engage my inner core to keep an anterior pelvic tilt and root motion into the seat instead of my back. Pro-tip here is try pressing down on the bars with your hands to engage your core.
- Maneuverability and sociability is the greatest drawback of the Cruzbike. Getting through the city streets to the open road is a little bit of a slog on the Cruzbike. Then in a group, it doesn't feel great to be in the middle of a bunch at speed... so I usually hang at the back. I have to push to keep up with a group up hill, and then break going down if I want to stay with a group.
- For long-ass solo riding, the Cruzbike is hard to beat.
- I'm planning to do my indoor training on a DF bike this winter and will look to pull out the Cruzbike in the spring. Then we'll see.

 

[HeyHealy]

I've been switching back and forth between my stock S40 and a Cervelo Caledonia since last fall. The S40 is fun, efficient, and comfortable. But it's much slower on big, steep hills than my Caledonia. I've been setting a lot of uphill PRs with it. (I live in Parker, CO, southeast of Denver. Most rides are a minimum of 1,000+ vertical feet.)

I just did a 62-mile ride on my Caledonia. I was in a LOT of pain at the end, especially the neck and upper shoulder area. Made me want to get back on my S40 for the next ride.

If I'm riding with guys on DF bikes, it's easier to ride my Caledonia so I can match them on climbing hills and not hold them back. (These are guys who ride 5k miles a year.) But if I'm riding by myself and not trying to match anybody else's pace, then I prefer the S40.

I'm not sure if riding my Caledonia has helped me on the S40. But I've found that riding my S40 has greatly improved my pedal stroke, which has definitely helped me put out more power on my Caledonia.

 

[Beano]

I do all my training on a DF which is attached to my Tacx NEO, you can put more watts on the DF so therefore can train at a higher intensity.

 

[ak-tux]

I do all my training on a DF which is attached to my Tacx NEO, you can put more watts on the DF so therefore can train at a higher intensity.

I occasionally get on my DF for a change. The power translates quite closely to my S40 but is a touch higher on the DF.
I noted the following:
1. The DF is noticeably lighter than my S40 ( by more than 3.5Kg). It is therefore more responsive to accelerations.
2. I climb faster on the DF , especially on longer sustained climbs ( not the short punchy ones. The S40 eats those for lunch!)
3. My kneck starts to ache after a couple of hours on the DF
4. I feel a little scared while descending down steep hills on the DF. (I feel like I might go over the handlebar)
5. The DF generally requires a greater degree of flexibility in order to achive a reasonable level of aerodynamics compared to the S40.