Elliptical rings and pedal steer
- Thread starter Shahmatt
- Start date
John Tolhurst
Zen MBB Master
Havn't noted any such effect,
Havn't noted any such effect, Shahmatt. We fit e-rings standard to the Quest.
Havn't noted any such effect, Shahmatt. We fit e-rings standard to the Quest.
Eric Winn
Zen MBB Master
I did not notice any
I did not notice any difference in pedal steer either for the brief period I was riding both the Quest and my Vendetta.
I did however, notice other aspects of the pedal stroke as the Quest has 155mm cranks and my Vendetta has 170mm.
Interestingly, pedaling the Vendetta feels way smoother to me. I think because the front triangle is extremely stiff on the V. The Q with front suspension feels very squishy compared to the V.
-Eric
I did not notice any difference in pedal steer either for the brief period I was riding both the Quest and my Vendetta.
I did however, notice other aspects of the pedal stroke as the Quest has 155mm cranks and my Vendetta has 170mm.
Interestingly, pedaling the Vendetta feels way smoother to me. I think because the front triangle is extremely stiff on the V. The Q with front suspension feels very squishy compared to the V.
-Eric
Charles.Plager
Recumbent Quant
It's also worth pointing out
It's also worth pointing out that pedal steer will almost completely go away with practice. Many Cruzbike riders can ride with no hands. This probably is somewhat a silly goal in itself, but learning how to ride with no hands means you've mastered pedal steer.
It's also worth pointing out that pedal steer will almost completely go away with practice. Many Cruzbike riders can ride with no hands. This probably is somewhat a silly goal in itself, but learning how to ride with no hands means you've mastered pedal steer.
billyk
Guru
no-hands does require compensation
Charles is right that pedal steer soon becomes a non-issue (except for the first stroke or two).
But riding no-hands does require an alternate way of compensating, since there is no getting around the fact that you are applying a torque to the steering column. Watching myself, I see that I compensate by rolling my shoulders, rolling onto the left when I push the right pedal and vv. It has the effect that I push outward with my feet, balancing the off-center torque, and get this sideways force from my opposite shoulder: each push is diagonally across the steering column from, e.g., left shoulder to right foot.
This is inherently not as efficient as pulling on the same-side handlebar, I think, since some effort is directed sideways and not into pedal force. When you pull the handlebar, your foot can push purely forward. Nevertheless, it's a whole lot of fun, and contributes to that wonderful feeling of gliding effortlessly down the road.
Plus, your hands are free for texting, eating lunch, taking photos, adjusting clothing ....
BK
Charles is right that pedal steer soon becomes a non-issue (except for the first stroke or two).
But riding no-hands does require an alternate way of compensating, since there is no getting around the fact that you are applying a torque to the steering column. Watching myself, I see that I compensate by rolling my shoulders, rolling onto the left when I push the right pedal and vv. It has the effect that I push outward with my feet, balancing the off-center torque, and get this sideways force from my opposite shoulder: each push is diagonally across the steering column from, e.g., left shoulder to right foot.
This is inherently not as efficient as pulling on the same-side handlebar, I think, since some effort is directed sideways and not into pedal force. When you pull the handlebar, your foot can push purely forward. Nevertheless, it's a whole lot of fun, and contributes to that wonderful feeling of gliding effortlessly down the road.
Plus, your hands are free for texting, eating lunch, taking photos, adjusting clothing ....
BK
Rick Youngblood
CarbonCraft Master
~Billy - Charles is right
I've managed to take 3 rides now on my new Silvio 2 (that's due to weather). They have been somewhat short rides at about 14-17 miles each.
I notice less pedal steer with my arms and shoulders relaxed. I like a little more than a slight bend in my arms. But as I get up to cruzing speed, I'm not really noticing or focusing on pedal steer (I like to just hang my arms off the bars). I would like to point out that I believe a smooth cadence helps with pedal steer. I run q-rings and think this may contribute to my smooth spin. At cruzing speed, I don't push or pull on the handlebars, I just let it do it's own thing. As I'm only in the beginning to learn the bike, I can understand that the pedal steer will become a non-issue over time.
I'm also able to start from a dead-start now, and find each time I do it gets easier and easier. This Friday, the weather will break and I plan on riding on a country road with some short 6-9 percent grades. Yesterday on my third ride, I experimented with a 6 percent hill climb of about 1/4 mile. First of all I wanted to make sure I could get un-clipped and stopped rolling at slow speed uphill with both feet planted on the ground. My speed was about 5.5 mph and I felt fairly confident at that speed, and I felt that I could have notched it a couple of more mph, but wanted see what slow was like. I could feel the pedal steer, but it was not bad at all, not what I thought it might be.
I also practice some more tight u-turns while pedaling.
Anyway, my experienced is moving ahead, and that's what it realy takes to start feeling comfortable, I believe.
I've managed to take 3 rides now on my new Silvio 2 (that's due to weather). They have been somewhat short rides at about 14-17 miles each.
I notice less pedal steer with my arms and shoulders relaxed. I like a little more than a slight bend in my arms. But as I get up to cruzing speed, I'm not really noticing or focusing on pedal steer (I like to just hang my arms off the bars). I would like to point out that I believe a smooth cadence helps with pedal steer. I run q-rings and think this may contribute to my smooth spin. At cruzing speed, I don't push or pull on the handlebars, I just let it do it's own thing. As I'm only in the beginning to learn the bike, I can understand that the pedal steer will become a non-issue over time.
I'm also able to start from a dead-start now, and find each time I do it gets easier and easier. This Friday, the weather will break and I plan on riding on a country road with some short 6-9 percent grades. Yesterday on my third ride, I experimented with a 6 percent hill climb of about 1/4 mile. First of all I wanted to make sure I could get un-clipped and stopped rolling at slow speed uphill with both feet planted on the ground. My speed was about 5.5 mph and I felt fairly confident at that speed, and I felt that I could have notched it a couple of more mph, but wanted see what slow was like. I could feel the pedal steer, but it was not bad at all, not what I thought it might be.
I also practice some more tight u-turns while pedaling.
Anyway, my experienced is moving ahead, and that's what it realy takes to start feeling comfortable, I believe.
mzweili
Guru
RIDING
Rick,
''I've managed to take 3 rides now on my new Silvio 2 (that's due to weather).'
Lucky you, my Silvio would be ready to go for a ride, but here in Quebec, Canada, we have to wait another couple of weeks before the snow melts and the temperature become acceptable. Days are at 5deg. F (-15C) before windchill.
Rick,
''I've managed to take 3 rides now on my new Silvio 2 (that's due to weather).'
Lucky you, my Silvio would be ready to go for a ride, but here in Quebec, Canada, we have to wait another couple of weeks before the snow melts and the temperature become acceptable. Days are at 5deg. F (-15C) before windchill.
Rick Youngblood
CarbonCraft Master
Lucky you, my Silvio would be
I sincerely feel bad for you folks that's dying to get out and ride your bikes that live in the northern or eastern areas of the country. Hope you get to report your rides soon!
I sincerely feel bad for you folks that's dying to get out and ride your bikes that live in the northern or eastern areas of the country. Hope you get to report your rides soon!
Shahmatt
Active Member
Charles is right that pedal
Charles is right that pedal steer soon becomes a non-issue (except for the first stroke or two).
@ BillyK,
Wow I'm having no such luck. I've put in maybe about 5 hrs of practice over a period of around 2 weeks and pedal steer continues to be a problem at higher speeds. It gets worse when I'm tired. I tried sprinting down a straight flat road the other day and was wobbling quite a bit at full power.
I am also a little disconcerted by my conversion's tendency to veer off course with the slightest unintended touch of the handlebars. The sensitivity is great at low speeds but not so good when I'm at around 15mph. Requires concentration to prevent accidental knocking of handlebars resulting in a tumble.
Admittedly I'm not hanging on to the bars as much as I used to and my control has improved. I shall keep practicing I guess. Maybe I will try Rick's relaxed shoulder approach in tonight's session.
As for the elliptical rings. I went on ebay and bid on a doval 56T elliptical ring a couple of weeks ago but lost out to someone who outbid me at the literal last minute at 2a.m. Darn it! Now I have to wait again for another opportunity. Or maybe I'll compromise with a smaller 53T Biopace ring. Decisions decisions!
I find that I'm struggling hard to reach slow traffic speeds on the stock 48T that is on the conversion. I'm hoping the 56T will help me get to the necessary speeds at a more relaxed cadence, and help me get closer to that Cruzbike zen state.
-Rizwan
Charles is right that pedal steer soon becomes a non-issue (except for the first stroke or two).
@ BillyK,
Wow I'm having no such luck. I've put in maybe about 5 hrs of practice over a period of around 2 weeks and pedal steer continues to be a problem at higher speeds. It gets worse when I'm tired. I tried sprinting down a straight flat road the other day and was wobbling quite a bit at full power.
I am also a little disconcerted by my conversion's tendency to veer off course with the slightest unintended touch of the handlebars. The sensitivity is great at low speeds but not so good when I'm at around 15mph. Requires concentration to prevent accidental knocking of handlebars resulting in a tumble.
Admittedly I'm not hanging on to the bars as much as I used to and my control has improved. I shall keep practicing I guess. Maybe I will try Rick's relaxed shoulder approach in tonight's session.
As for the elliptical rings. I went on ebay and bid on a doval 56T elliptical ring a couple of weeks ago but lost out to someone who outbid me at the literal last minute at 2a.m. Darn it! Now I have to wait again for another opportunity. Or maybe I'll compromise with a smaller 53T Biopace ring. Decisions decisions!
I find that I'm struggling hard to reach slow traffic speeds on the stock 48T that is on the conversion. I'm hoping the 56T will help me get to the necessary speeds at a more relaxed cadence, and help me get closer to that Cruzbike zen state.
-Rizwan
Eric Winn
Zen MBB Master
Hi Rizwan,
I don't think your
Hi Rizwan,
I don't think your bike should be that sensitive. On my Vendetta, a Quest, and a Silvio I could pretty much pedal like mad and use normal inputs to the handlebar without any of the sensitivity or wobbling.
I have not seen a conversion kit other than in photos but it sounds like you might want to experiment with however it lets you adjust for trail and head angle to see if you can find a more stable configuration. That and double check all of your fittings on the entire bike to make sure nothing is loose.
-Eric
I don't think your
Hi Rizwan,
I don't think your bike should be that sensitive. On my Vendetta, a Quest, and a Silvio I could pretty much pedal like mad and use normal inputs to the handlebar without any of the sensitivity or wobbling.
I have not seen a conversion kit other than in photos but it sounds like you might want to experiment with however it lets you adjust for trail and head angle to see if you can find a more stable configuration. That and double check all of your fittings on the entire bike to make sure nothing is loose.
-Eric
Charles.Plager
Recumbent Quant
I agree with Eric. My
I agree with Eric. My conversion rides just like my Sofrider. Part of it in your case is inexperience, so just riding will help (it might be your legs over compensating for your arms, for example). But it's worth checking to make sure your bike is tight in all the right places, and maybe try a different set of holes on the conversion kit fork adapter (there are 3).
Added: You're running 16" wheels, correct? You may be the first conversion with wheels this small, so it's definitely worth playing the the rake/trail by using different holes on the fork adapter.
I agree with Eric. My conversion rides just like my Sofrider. Part of it in your case is inexperience, so just riding will help (it might be your legs over compensating for your arms, for example). But it's worth checking to make sure your bike is tight in all the right places, and maybe try a different set of holes on the conversion kit fork adapter (there are 3).
Added: You're running 16" wheels, correct? You may be the first conversion with wheels this small, so it's definitely worth playing the the rake/trail by using different holes on the fork adapter.
John Tolhurst
Zen MBB Master
Try choosing a particular
Try choosing a particular cadence and work at getting good at it. After that, go to slower and faster cadences.
Try choosing a particular cadence and work at getting good at it. After that, go to slower and faster cadences.
billyk
Guru
Let me redefine "soon", Shahmatt
@Shahmatt - "soon" was ... imprecise. Let's say a few months of regular riding.
In the Quest forum you'll see some posts by me describing my struggles. The good news is that you will learn it ... but it really is a different feeling and will take some time. 5 hours of practice is not enough to feel comfortable, especially in traffic. 50 is more like it.
Consciously trying to relax is almost a contradiction in terms, but that's what you have to teach your body to do. Especially the hands and arms. It helped me to keep my thumbs _above_ the handlebars (parallel to my other fingers and not around the bar). That way, I could pull back (with my 4 fingers) but not clamp onto the bar.
Find a nice flat open place to practice without traffic. Try to make your pedal strokes even and smooth. Forget about going fast. It will come, and then you'll have the satisfaction of having taught yourself a new skill and will have a great bike.
BK
@Shahmatt - "soon" was ... imprecise. Let's say a few months of regular riding.
In the Quest forum you'll see some posts by me describing my struggles. The good news is that you will learn it ... but it really is a different feeling and will take some time. 5 hours of practice is not enough to feel comfortable, especially in traffic. 50 is more like it.
Consciously trying to relax is almost a contradiction in terms, but that's what you have to teach your body to do. Especially the hands and arms. It helped me to keep my thumbs _above_ the handlebars (parallel to my other fingers and not around the bar). That way, I could pull back (with my 4 fingers) but not clamp onto the bar.
Find a nice flat open place to practice without traffic. Try to make your pedal strokes even and smooth. Forget about going fast. It will come, and then you'll have the satisfaction of having taught yourself a new skill and will have a great bike.
BK
Shahmatt
Active Member
Tonight's session was pretty
Tonight's session was pretty good. Somehow everything was much easier. I was also able to move around without hands - in a straight line and in wide circles. Whadya know!! I took a day off the bike yesterday. Maybe that made a difference.
All this talk of cadence, smooth cadence etc. got me thinking. My upright bike is geared higher. So I'm guessing that I've been used to pedaling at a low cadence for any given speed. And low cadence isn't that great on a Cruzbike as it exacerbates the pedal steer.. especially for a learner.. is my guess.
John,
As advised I kept the cadence constant and higher, and the gears lower for what speeds I was traveling. It made a difference.
BK,
Thanks for the advice. I dug out your posts on the Quest. They are quite informative. Of all the Cruzbikes I like the Quest the best somehow. It's color scheme appeals to me. Oh also, that fairing compliments the look well. Very nice!
Eric and Charles,
Indeed this conversion is using 16" wheels. The geometry is such that low or negative trail can be a problem. My (crude) calculation tells me that I'm slightly positive. I've set the wheel in a position that should give me the most positive trail. It would be difficult to increase it further - but I may try if the issue shows that stability is a serious problem. For now though I will try to get accustomed to this trail position.
The good news is that it is really quite stable and even nimble at slow (pedestrian) speeds of up to 10kmph. This is quite useful to me in navigating through busy pedestrian areas. So I'm enjoying that aspect of it.
Tonight's session was pretty good. Somehow everything was much easier. I was also able to move around without hands - in a straight line and in wide circles. Whadya know!! I took a day off the bike yesterday. Maybe that made a difference.
All this talk of cadence, smooth cadence etc. got me thinking. My upright bike is geared higher. So I'm guessing that I've been used to pedaling at a low cadence for any given speed. And low cadence isn't that great on a Cruzbike as it exacerbates the pedal steer.. especially for a learner.. is my guess.
John,
As advised I kept the cadence constant and higher, and the gears lower for what speeds I was traveling. It made a difference.
BK,
Thanks for the advice. I dug out your posts on the Quest. They are quite informative. Of all the Cruzbikes I like the Quest the best somehow. It's color scheme appeals to me. Oh also, that fairing compliments the look well. Very nice!
Eric and Charles,
Indeed this conversion is using 16" wheels. The geometry is such that low or negative trail can be a problem. My (crude) calculation tells me that I'm slightly positive. I've set the wheel in a position that should give me the most positive trail. It would be difficult to increase it further - but I may try if the issue shows that stability is a serious problem. For now though I will try to get accustomed to this trail position.
The good news is that it is really quite stable and even nimble at slow (pedestrian) speeds of up to 10kmph. This is quite useful to me in navigating through busy pedestrian areas. So I'm enjoying that aspect of it.
Charles.Plager
Recumbent Quant
Hi Rizwan,
It sounds like it
Hi Rizwan,
It sounds like it is really just an experience thing (which is good). Find a nice quiet place and just work on smooth cadence pedaling. Smooooth. Smooooooooth.
Keep up informed.
Cheers,
Charles
It sounds like it
Hi Rizwan,
It sounds like it is really just an experience thing (which is good). Find a nice quiet place and just work on smooth cadence pedaling. Smooooth. Smooooooooth.
Keep up informed.
Cheers,
Charles
