First Crash On the Vendetta

[ScottRadliff]

OK. I realize that this was only the third ride on the streets, and the first at doing a workout with intervals in other than Endurance Pace zone. Perhaps a little too soon. All other riding had been in the trainer, parking lots, or my Chicago neiborhood.

I have been noticing that my line of travel would sometime get a little erratic, or squirrelly. Particularly when my spin gets too high, or when I need to shift my upper body. It's like I am pivoting horizontally over the bike, and the bike is going off on it's own track. Resulting in a correction, and sometimes another correction, and another. It doesn't seem so bad, when I am at a lower cadence/speed and have a positive pressure in the pedals, but not too much.

I will say that I still have quite a bit of a grip on the handlebars "in the drops". Although I consciously make an effort to lighten my grip, but the sleightest bobble, and I am white knuckled, or going after the brakes in reaction.

Is it possible that due to the grip and muscle tension in the arms (trying to keep the bike under control) is one of the root causes of my wobbly track, and cause for over correction? Could the narrowness of the standard seat also contribute, since I am rocking my body as I pedal?

The one thing I do feel I need to do, is that I should loosen up the front brake. When I go after them (out of instinct), it makes matters worse. Sometime resulting in the back end coming off the ground and wheeling around.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[RojoRacing]

If you're that unstable may I suggest a bike path away from cars that can run you over if you swerve into them. I rode a closed bike path for 2 weeks before hitting the open roads.

1. The lighter the pressure on your pedals the more instability your likely to experience so pedaling easy will be unsteady. Suddenly slowing your pedaling instead on completely stopping pedaling during sudden un-stability will most likely exaggerate the un-stability. Next ride try riding at a brisk pace that feels stable and then ease off the power to say like 20% at the same cadence, note how this changes your stability and observe how you can slowly increase power to bring stability back. All this is automatic once you've mastered it but you're not there yet.

2. there are dozen of things you can be doing to create this type of situation so you yourself are your best source of info for what is happening. If you feel something take note of it, think about it, recreate it and observe it. Doing this you will will learn so much as you go.

3. read the instructional threads on here, they are there because they already cover most your questions.

 

[Bentas]

I find that I am more stable with hands on the hoods than in the drops,only tend to go to drops on fast coasting descents.

 

[ScottRadliff]

If you're that unstable may I suggest a bike path away from cars that can run you over if you swerve into them. I rode a closed bike path for 2 weeks before hitting the open roads.

I am not always that unstable. It just pops up from time to time. When going fast and hitting a downslope and coasting faster than I can pedal, etc.

1. The lighter the pressure on your pedals the more instability your likely to experience so pedaling easy will be unsteady. Suddenly slowing your pedaling instead on completely stopping pedaling during sudden un-stability will most likely exaggerate the un-stability. Next ride try riding at a brisk pace that feels stable and then ease off the power to say like 20% at the same cadence, note how this changes your stability and observe how you can slowly increase power to bring stability back. All this is automatic once you've mastered it but you're not there yet.

This is definitely the case. Going after the pedals and not having resistance does certainly induce some instability.

This bike simply loves to go fast! I have to make a mental effort to slow it up. Though wiping-out sure does give me motivation to keep it under 20mph.

 

[ScottRadliff]

I find that I am more stable with hands on the hoods than in the drops,only tend to go to drops on fast coasting descents.

I've tried that, but find that I can hit the brakes even quicker and almost always unintentionally. And when I am in a wobble, I find myself with a handful of brakes quite frequently. Scary monsters!

 

[billyk]

@RojoRacing is right: coasting or pedaling very lightly is more unstable. A steady push on the pedals (e.g. going up a slight incline) is for me the easiest. That's how I learned to ride no-hands.

And if you're rolling your back on the seat then you haven't yet gotten the rhythmic pull on the bars that's supposed to balance the pedal pushes. That use of the upper body is also where the real power of the MBB design comes into play.

But there's nothing for it but practice. Traffic is not where to do this! It took me months before I really felt that I "owned" the bike. You'll get it like we've all done, but yeah, there's a learning curve.

Since you didn't say anything about damage to you or the bike, I'll assume it was minor. Great news!

 

[RojoRacing]

I am not always that unstable. It just pops up from time to time. When going fast and hitting a downslope and coasting faster than I can pedal, etc.

It only takes that one time at the wrong time as a car is passing you too closely to end in tears, but you're right we're only seeing the worse of your ride so the judgment is yours alone.

maybe read through my introductory thread I made back when I first go my V20 as a trial. You be hard pressed to find someone who hated the bike more than me at the start but has gone on to accomplish things other thought impossible on a bent. This thread only covers some of what I learned and tried with the bike but it's the exact point you are at now so some of my over analytical observations put into text may help something for you click. http://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/the-road-to-500-miles-in-24hrs.8915/

 

[tiltmaniac]

Dang! Sorry to see you go over!

I'd also investigate pulling in your boom a small bit. Most of the instability that I experienced was due to the pedals being 'too far away', leading to needing a very (inhumanly) delicate balance between push+pull.

Adjusting the boom inward (bring the pedals closer to your hips) stopped all of that wobbling at speed for me. It is quite related to the other advice in this thread: When the pedals are closer, it is easy to ensure that you never need to extend your ankle to keep 'pushing', where 'pushing' brings some stability (it tries to straighten the boom, whereas pulling causes the boom to swing away from centerline).

 

[DavidCH]

Yep... that was a fall. There was something brown very close to the kirb. Was it a drain cover? You were probably aware of the car behind you, some uneven ground coming your way and the acceleration of the bike. Whatever it was you tried to correct the initial wobble, and over corrected and down you went. Pleased you didn't hurt yourself. My brother who lives in the states always tell me stories about vehicles with trailers. The driver is usually well aware of the width of the vehicle but not so much of the trailer. He's had a couple of near misses with trailers. So it might be an idea of getting one of those traffic radars.

 

[jond]

Scott ouch. Mate go back and do ratz s drills. Do figure eights till you have no more moments. You don’t have control fully yet. Do the drills. Yes and if your boom assembly is too far out that causes instability. You should be able to ride a white line. Move about on the seat ride one handed do a u turn in a narrow street laying down or sitting up. Take your time. Enjoy. Took me a 1000 klm but it was fun and worth it. Push pull your style will become natural no think over all efforts and cadence. Braking into a woh Nellie moment will usually exacerbate situation. It’s just experience and time. Go get it safely as rojo mentioned maybe away from cars. Don’t let off your brake power strong brakes are good. We all froze up on woh Nellie moments and probably crashed. I did. But it was in a safe place at low speed where scratching the bike was not likely. Do the drills. Earn your licence.

The bobble as you describe is usually the bike just moving around especially on rougher sections. It is then that experience counts to control gently by not freezing in the bobble positions lol. Do the drills.

 

[Bill K]

I also crashed on my 3rd ride. Destroyed the bar-end shifter. That was over 17,000 miles ago and I haven't crashed since then so it DOES get better!
One thing that would have prevented my crash (and is mentioned elsewhere on this forum) is to lift your feet off the pedals when you start to loose it. It takes a while to learn to control pedal steer. By lifting your feet off the pedals, steering returns to "simple" arm control.

 

[RojoRacing]

I also crashed on my 3rd ride. Destroyed the bar-end shifter. That was over 17,000 miles ago and I haven't crashed since then so it DOES get better!
One thing that would have prevented my crash (and is mentioned elsewhere on this forum) is to lift your feet off the pedals when you start to loose it. It takes a while to learn to control pedal steer. By lifting your feet off the pedals, steering returns to "simple" arm control.

This is the absolute worst advise in my personal experience. If I take my feet off the pedal at a slow coasting speed the steering is super twitchy without the weight of my legs in the equation. I was getting hot foot during on of my double centuries so I decided to take the weight off my feet during a long fast strait DH. First foot off and I was still fine but as soon as my second foot left the pedal I can only describe the experience as down right frightening, I will never make that mistake again.

Also it should be noted that "lifting your feet off" basically assumes you not using clip-less pedals which would apply to most new owners.

 

[ScottRadliff]

Well, today's ride was much better. I made a conscious effort to stay relaxed, and to keep it under 20mph and to always have some pressure on the pedals (no free spinning). That sure did help out quite a bit. Even if I had to drop cadence and increase gear to get that pressure. Though on the trip back in, I did indulge myself with a bit of a flyer for a mile or two. Nothing crazy, like 98-125% of FTP, but definitely an enjoyable pace.

Once I quit trying to 'lock-out' the tracking wobble, and just let it go, it was a whole lot less of a handful. Enough that riding palms-out was doable for great stretches.

One thing I noted, was that to re-center my body on the seat, I had to coast, then sit up and lay back down. On my Encore, I am able to slide/shift/adjust without the bike taking of on a direction of its own choosing. Still not ready for the behind the head reach to get a bottle, but that will come.

Tonight, I went out for a short ride with my wife, and took the Encore. My mind was expecting the pedal steering, and I was doing counter-steer with my arms, and actually inducing a hell of a wobble. Just as other's have mentioned. I know that the recommendation is to stick with the Vendetta until I get it down solid, then move back, but I chose to go back to the stick for the lolly-gagging unpredictable navigation, that riding with my wife brings.

To catch up on all of the comments and questions you have shared so far:

The bike is fit, boom and all. I really think the causation was trying to go for a lot of power, too soon. Before I really had handlebar counter-steer, down-pat.

If there is any complaint, it is that the bars are too far back for me. When I sit up at red lights, my chest rubs against my computer. Changing screens, pressing start/stop buttons, etc. When I am clipped in, I am a bit under the bars. Coming up to a stop, I have to unclip on foot and do a kick-scootch to get out from under it. Adjusting the bars back out would cause straight arms, and knee strikes. It is, what it is. Perhaps once I get comfortable enough to come to a stop and put a foot down while reclined, that will be less of an issue.

I've done the Ratz drills. The rest is down to getting comfortable on the streets. Living in Chicago, means doing it in traffic. I seek out the bike lanes as much as possible, and keep to some of the earlier hours in the day. We have an 18 mile bike path along the lake front, but it is 2 miles to get to it. Not to mention that there is pedestrians, joggers, dogs, and cyclists of all types/skills on there. Not a place to work on wobble abatement. So, the streets, it is.

Inspecting the bike found only some scrapes on a pedal, and bottle cage behind the headrest. Looks like my hip and one of the custom shoes took the brunt of the impact and damage.

Back on that horse. During the 'flyer'.

 

[benphyr]

@ScottRadliff Welcome to the tribe!

I think another way of looking at the prior advice would be that for each of us we have a diffferent experience of learning but when looking back after experience we see that we had a pile of initial excitement that led us to push the envelope and we just would love you to become a great Cruzbike Tribe member and ambassador - and we would hate for you to become a statistic because you are doing some of the same dumb things that we did at first. Looking back we can see that initial excitement has if anything continued to grow as skill and experience grew. Don't worry about initial excitement fading - it continues and grows with Cruzbike. Like the old mother hen - we know you are learning and we have to let go but we can't stop ourselves from being worried for your safety too.

Again, the drills. And if you are not suitable to drive on the lake front bike path with unpredictable 150lb animals on foot or wheels , then you are not suitable for arguing with unpredictable 150lb animals in 2800lb four wheeled metal carcasses nor stationary objects whether four wheeled, vegetable, human, or structures. Just my unhumble opinion (That weight is the average for small sedans let alone full size cars, SUVs, trucks, delivery vehicles, etc. etc.)

Ride safe, you are getting there -- just don't want you hurt along the way.

 

[ScottRadliff]

Now that I really think about it... On every other stick bike I have had, when it came to doing higher power intervals, I would scrunch down in the seat to shorten the distance to the pedals, and pull on the bars a bit. Even on a DF, I move up on the saddle nose.

I don't rightly remember if I was doing that during the ride that wiped out on, but it wouldn't surprise me. Pulling on the bars to help me put more power into the pedals, and dealing with the wobble could be a recipe for disaster.

 

[ak-tux]

Sorry for your crash @ScottRadliff ! I have seen a couple of youtube videos recently of new Vendetta V20 owners crashing. Yours is the third I have seen within a month.

In my humble opinion, the V20 is not suitable for first time cruzbike/recumbent owners who want to get the bike and hit the road too soon, too fast, too quickly. Maybe the Cruzbike marketing for the V20 is too effective and new owners are overlooking some basics and realities about the geometry of the MBB/FWD bicycle with an agressive seat angle like the V20. We are not all the same but human reflexes need time to develop for a new skill.

One needs time and patience to develop SLOW SPEED CONTROL in a safe environment(empty car park or a private road). Figure eight drills and left and right U turns for at least 30 minutes at walking pace (6Km/h or less). Repeat it three/four times a week, for me I did this for a couple of months. I still practice handsfree U turns, deliberate smooth zig zag moves and some figure eights on recovery sessions whenever I can. It helps to make me feel one with my bike. Practice riding a straight line along white lines. Practice seating up in sharp U turns, rough patches, speed bumps e.t.c. Practice starts and stops. Practice safe coasting. Practice to resume to pedal after coasting without sudden jolts of force, but gradually easing back to a smooth cadence e.t.c. Until you can ride the bike with a light grip, a light touch of the handlebars.
Practice, practice, practice ... first.

Inflate the tires correctly, especially the front which is equivalent to the rear of the upright bike. Use 28mm tires or bigger to be safe from pinch flats. Adjust the neckrest/headrest so that you can see straight ahead and not into the sky. You should be able to see the road surface a few feet ahead of you I think. Adjust the bike(boom slider) so that the pedals are comfortably positioned for a smooth pedalling action without causing you to overreach.

Start without cleated shoes and clip-less pedals for a month. In short, TAKE YOUR TIME, before you hit the public roads.

If you used to ride a road bike and have never ridden a recumbent or a cruzbike for that matter, I'd say one should start with a bike with a seat angle above 30 degrees. An S40 in my opinion, is better for the beginner roadie convert.

Three things: Proper setup, practice, patience.

Just my humble opinion ....

Reported other recent V20 crashes:

 

[bladderhead]

If there isany complaint, it is that the bars are too far back for me.

Same problem for me on my Silvio.

If you have normal drop-bars in the normal DF position, the curves where you normally put your hands are forward of the clamp. So on a DF, you lean over the bars and the stem points towards your sternum. If you put bars like this on a Silvio or Vendetta, the place for your hands is forward of the clamp. The clamp is right in your sternum like one of those restraining bars they have on a roller-coaster, so you cannot lean forward. So you move the bars forward, and then you need longer arms.

I tried loads of ways to fix this. Put the bars on upside-down. Then you can rotate them so your hands are behind the clamp. After loads of experiments I got Crononero bars and put them upside-down with the bar-ends pointing upwards, so my hands are not in front of the clamp. I also sawed the boom, to allow the clamp to be closer to the BB. I did this because I use a mid-foot placement which gives me a short effective inseam. A few other people have done this.

I now have a big space in front of my chest, allowing me to lean forward. This makes a huge improvement in starting and stopping and low-speed stuff in the park, and getting on and off. I use it for commuting and shopping. Easy to fly along in the country for hours without seeing a junction or a pedestrian barrier. If you can ride in the streets and parks of London or Chicago or Nairobi without drama, you know you can handle it.

 

[1happyreader]

Well, today's ride was much better. I made a conscious effort to stay relaxed,

Once I quit trying to 'lock-out' the tracking wobble, and just let it go, it was a whole lot less of a handful. Enough that riding palms-out was doable for great stretches.

whoo hoo,, yess,,,

Living in Chicago, means doing it in traffic. I seek out the bike lanes as much as possible, and keep to some of the earlier hours in the day. We have an 18 mile bike path along the lake front, but it is 2 miles to get to it. Not to mention that there is pedestrians, joggers, dogs, and cyclists of all types/skills on there. Not a place to work on wobble abatement. So, the streets, it is.

Oh hell to the yes. I grew up in Jefferson / Portage Park area there is NO way a Vendetta belongs on the northside lake multi use paths.

Perhaps you can do the Yearly ride where they close the LSD to traffic, would make a great report / video.

 

[jond]

Sorry for your crash @ScottRadliff ! I have seen a couple of youtube videos recently of new Vendetta V20 owners crashing. Yours is the third I have seen within a month.

In my humble opinion, the V20 is not suitable for first time cruzbike/recumbent owners who want to get the bike and hit the road too soon, too fast, too quickly. Maybe the Cruzbike marketing for the V20 is too effective and new owners are overlooking some basics and realities about the geometry of the MBB/FWD bicycle with an agressive seat angle like the V20. We are not all the same but human reflexes need time to develop for a new skill.

One needs time and patience to develop SLOW SPEED CONTROL in a safe environment(empty car park or a private road). Figure eight drills and left and right U turns for at least 30 minutes at walking pace (6Km/h or less). Repeat it three/four times a week, for me I did this for a couple of months. I still practice handsfree U turns, deliberate smooth zig zag moves and some figure eights on recovery sessions whenever I can. It helps to make me feel one with my bike. Practice riding a straight line along white lines. Practice seating up in sharp U turns, rough patches, speed bumps e.t.c. Practice starts and stops. Practice safe coasting. Practice to resume to pedal after coasting without sudden jolts of force, but gradually easing back to a smooth cadence e.t.c. Until you can ride the bike with a light grip, a light touch of the handlebars.
Practice, practice, practice ... first.

Inflate the tires correctly, especially the front which is equivalent to the rear of the upright bike. Use 28mm tires or bigger to be safe from pinch flats. Adjust the neckrest/headrest so that you can see straight ahead and not into the sky. You should be able to see the road surface a few feet ahead of you I think. Adjust the bike(boom slider) so that the pedals are comfortably positioned for a smooth pedalling action without causing you to overreach.

Start without cleated shoes and clip-less pedals for a month. In short, TAKE YOUR TIME, before you hit the public roads.

If you used to ride a road bike and have never ridden a recumbent or a cruzbike for that matter, I'd say one should start with a bike with a seat angle above 30 degrees. An S40 in my opinion, is better for the beginner roadie convert.

Three things: Proper setup, practice, patience.

Just my humble opinion ....

Reported other recent V20 crashes:

Ouch those crashes. Don’t mix traffic and inexperience with the vendetta.

 

[ElyDave]

Those low speed drills are so valuable. Towards the end of a ride last week I ended up on a patch of gravel in the entrance to a side road to do a 180, it was almost automatic to drop a few gears, loosen a foot out of the pedal and just slowly pilot my way through it, no dramas.

It would not have been automatic 1600km ago and would almost certainly have ended with dropping the bike

Do the Drills!