Front wheel drive and why it fails the "stability when you most need it" test.

[kenhardwick]

I was especially surprised to see this article on an "Australian" recumbent dealers' webpage....

http://www.flyingfurniture.com.au/info/front-wheel-drive-and-why-it-fails-stability-when-you-most-need-it-test

The following copied directly from webpage per the link above...

??Flying Furniture Cycles is Australia's most experienced recumbent retailer. We sell the broadest range of recumbent bikes and trikes in Australia AND we sell CHILD TRAILERS and touring and folding bikes too.

** Over 40 recumbent trikes and recumbent bikes to test all in one place right here **

Front wheel drive bikes?

Combine the pedal drive system and steering system in one unit and their you have it - all the chain angle and fast chain wear problems of a standard bike and extra bike stability problems too...

(Note that the long chain on a rear wheel drive recumbent does not go through any gear at an angle nor twist when you steer so that chain and drive components last much longer than on a FWD and much longer than a standard short chain on an upright bike).

The best rear wheel drive recumbents work just brilliantly so why do people even make front wheel drive bikes? Is it just marketing? Yes and no. Yes because you can make these FWD sound simple and sell them on that basis and no because well when you need to be inside the tiniest tiniest package of a full fairing it and/or you ride on a flat smooth dry and clean race track and you are a very very experienced rider you may be almost stable enough. Real world road riding is sometimes a lot trickier.

I've spoken to many home builders of front wheel drive bikes and now even some owners of commercially bought front wheel drive bikes - one thing they all have in common is the "unexpected fall"... it is the sort of thing that just happens out of the blue when they are least expecting it or in the worse case scenario when they are trying to take evasive action and steer out of the way of or around something. Steering grip and drive grip all on one small tyre front patch - it works ok on a FWD car where a little slip can happen and the car doesn't fall over but on a 2 wheeler? A little slip on a wet patch, sand, dirt, oil, or even a leaf and control is not easily regained.

One front wheel drive bike rider/owner even commented in the first 5 seconds of a test ride here on a Bacchetta bike that the Bacchetta was a hundred times easier to learn to ride than his commercially bought FWD bike. He bought a Bacchetta that day and sold his FWD soon after. But I guess at least they are a good and mostly cheap if heavy introduction to the comfort of a recumbent. Of course given the choice I'd never ride one when I could ride a beautifully stable and predictable rear wheel drive recumbent bike that is just as comfortable and in fact faster and lighter! All the recent "new" front wheel drive designs are just the same old designs as before surrounded by new hype / salesmanship...

We at Flying Furniture have ridden several front wheel drive bikes but we don't sell any. Given the above and the stability, safety and liability issues surrounding them would be just crazy to sell them or even recommend them. We don't.

Let me know if you have any other questions or need any further more specific information.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Of course I would disagree....

 

[Eric Winn]

Hmmm, with a name like Flying

Hmmm, with a name like Flying Furniture I suppose I'm not too surprised at their opinion...

And everything they describe is just as applicable to a RWD recumbent or upright.

-Eric

 

[trplay]

Lots of bad stuff on the

Lots of bad stuff on the internet. This reminds me years ago when Greenspeed the premier Trike maker at the time put out tons of data supported with scientific gobly-gook showing why small wheels were faster. The big wheel trikes were also going to taco like crazy with the side loads. My-my look where we are today? We big wheel enthusiasts were few at most. Hard to find one of those small wheel zealots today , I wonder where they all went? Ian (flying furniture) also has the chain thing wrong. Makes me wonder how he claims the title most experienced recumbent dealer in Oz.

 

[scabinetguy]

Bad stuff

I ride with some Bacchetta people and they do OK on the flats but when we start to climb, all they see is the back of my helmet fading away in the distance. I'm always surprised when people are confronted with a learning curve, they throw up their hands and go back to their wheelchairs.

 

[Robert Holler]

Yikes. That was a lot of

Yikes. That was a lot of commentary with literally zero evidence or examples to support the theory. More of a "I cant do it therefore its no good" perspective.

That said - it is not surprising and I have to agree with scabinetguy. Could easily say that about any vehicle - human power or otherwise. I know very few people who inside 5 minutes of a first test ride EVER could handle a 700lb motorcycle, yet those are still around! Miracle!

 

[Gromit]

Aimed at chain-twisting FWD bikes?

I don't think that the article is specifically aimed at the Cruzbike but at bikes with fixed booms where the chain has to make a 90 degree bend around an idler on both the drive and return sides and where the chain is twisted to steer.

 

[John Tolhurst]

Dont' sweat it. Ian at Flying

Dont' sweat it. Ian at Flying Furniture is just another guy in a garage.

 

[chrisblessing]

Sad commentary...

Because he concluded with an offer to provide "specific information", I wrote the author the following:

"Dear Ian,

I read with interest your commentary on front-wheel drive recumbents. You conclude with "Let me know if you have any other questions or need any further more specific information". As a long-time (15 years +) rider of commercially-built long and short wheel-base recumbents, a home-built LWB, and now a Cruzbike conversion, I'm curious as to whether you have any empirical evidence supporting your contentions regarding drive-train wear, and whether you have any personal experience with stability on any commercial FWD recumbent.

I ask the latter question because there's little question that a home builder could easily construct an unstable bicycle, just as they could build an unstable RWD recumbent or diamond frame bicycle.

I regularly ride my 20", MBB, folding recumbent in hilly, wet Kuala Lumpur. I manage hills here that I know would challenge my other recumbents. I freely admit to having to take time to learn the idiosyncrasies of MBB, but didn't find the learning curve any taller than my initial experiences on my first recumbent, the Vision R40.

Please note that I'm not trying to provoke an argument here. But your indictment of MBB/FWD is pretty stern with little more than anecdotal evidence to support it"

 

[Shahmatt]

Chris,
Hear, hear! 
 

Chris,

Hear, hear!

 

[super slim]

I bought my first Recumbent

I bought my first Recumbent from Ian (a ex demo model Scorpion FX trike), and it was not a good experience, as he was all nice and helpful, to get the order and a large deposit on a demo bike and up front payment up front ,on additions like mudguards, heavy spring, 4 pannier rack, etc. so the parts would be there when I picked the trike up 6 weeks later.

Once he got the final payment , no extra parts for 5 months, and it was only after the threat of involving consumer affairs, that I got the parts, but with no warrantee support.

He is not an honest person, and only his opinion on recumbent is correct, and he got very upset if you tried to discuss it with him to understand what he was saying. He is not a good ambassador for recumbents, and definitely not a people person!

Its not just his comments about MBB/FWD, its also about Velomobiles, or anything he does not sell.

He has got a lot more narrow minded, and less factorial than 6 years ago!
I wonder if he is well?

Super Slim

 

[chrisblessing]

Ian's response

Ian was kind enough to reply to my question. While he didn't respond to my request for empirical evidence regarding drive-train wear and tear, he did note his personal experiences in riding MBB/FWD. Here's his response:

"?I wouldn't have written what I had written without extensive experience. Yes I've ridden boith Euro commercial FWD bikes in Europe and top of the line Cruzbike and many home builders FWD bikes (yes they love theirs too). I think they do all set back and distract recumbent progress and they look awful too.

Glad you like whatever you ride though - have fun."

 

[MrSteve]

Tha-

That was funny, thanks for sharing.

Lemme just add to what Scabinetguy said....
The local, speedy Bachettas are quicker than my hot-rodded Sofrider V1
-on the flats.

However, they're totally outclassed uphill.

Ian sounds like he's having fun.
Good for him.

-Steve

 

[Charles.Plager]

I'll point out that there

I'll point out that there used to be a lot more of "this opinion" over at BROL. As more and more people got experience and as a certain-shall-not-be-named-but-we-all-know-who-she-is kicked-@$$ at RAAM, it has largely gone away.

People are free to have their opinion about things and it's clear to a lot of us that many of these opinions are, well, wrong. Given what we now know about this individual, not giving him more of a soapbox than he already has may be the best future action.

I'll let xkcd sum it up:

 

[igolfat8]

Brol Reviews?

Has anyone [on staff] over at BROL ever done a review on Cruzbikes, specifically the Silvio or Vendetta?

 

[Charles.Plager]

Has anyone [on staff] over at

Has anyone [on staff] over at BROL ever done a review on Cruzbikes, specifically the Silvio or Vendetta?

I know Bryan has reviewed Quest and Sofrider. I don't think they've reviewed Vendetta and I'm quite sure they haven't reviewed the new Silvio. It would be easy to argue that this would be a good time for exactly that.

 

[ratz]

It is in the works

Bryan said that some Cruzbike stuff is on the upcoming docket; lack of time for him to build a frame kit up; has been the hold up in the past. I got the impression that he was getting pre-built units this spring to review.

 

[Ian Smith]

Just to reiterate...

Just to reiterate Slim's views; Ian at FF is a dick. He has ticked off so many people in the recumbent realm it is amazing that he continues to do, what appears to be, good amounts of business. I think it may have something to do with the fact that he has distributor rights to so many of the brands on his site. Talk to anyone in Canberra and ask what they think of FF and Ian and you won't get a pleasant reply. He knows naught about MBB and infinitesimal amounts on velomobiles. On the other hand, Canberra has one of the most knowledgeable bent riders; Peter Heale. Pete has ridden solo around Australia (18,000 km) and many other grand journeys, owns a competing bent bike shop and hates Ian with a passion. Pete has built several of the FWD bikes and trikes (tilting and static) that Ian refers to, plus bent boats.

I think it's best to take what Ian and FF say with a pinch of salt and ignore the imbecile.

 

[jond]

Just to reiterate...

Just to reiterate Slim's views; Ian at FF is a dick. He has ticked off so many people in the recumbent realm it is amazing that he continues to do, what appears to be, good amounts of business. I think it may have something to do with the fact that he has distributor rights to so many of the brands on his site. Talk to anyone in Canberra and ask what they think of FF and Ian and you won't get a pleasant reply. He knows naught about MBB and infinitesimal amounts on velomobiles. On the other hand, Canberra has one of the most knowledgeable bent riders; Peter Heale. Pete has ridden solo around Australia (18,000 km) and many other grand journeys, owns a competing bent bike shop and hates Ian with a passion. Pete has built several of the FWD bikes and trikes (tilting and static) that Ian refers to, plus bent boats.

I think it's best to take what Ian and FF say with a pinch of salt and ignore the imbecile.

Footnote.
Poit is a friend who still makes stuff supreme including a recent full carbon bent bike.
He at 62 is still riding up a storm.
Meanwhile flying furniture flew out the window several years ago.

 

[ElyDave]

My 'bent experience
ICE B2 - 2 x 26" or 700c wheels
M5 M-Races 700C/26" wheel combination
CB S40

Learning curve - ICE B2, newbie, steep but short; M5 with 18 months bent riding experience, steep and long; CB with 3 years bent riding experience, short and flat, easier than the B2.