Front Wheel Slippage - How Serious is It?

[David Saxton]

I'm currently riding an HPV Speedmachine recumbent and am a pretty avid rider - I mostly ride for commuting on the flats, where that bike is ideal, and did ~4,000 miles / 100,000 ft of climbing on that bike in the past year.

I've been getting into longer road rides and am thinking of getting a new recumbent that climbs steep hills better than my heavy Speedmachine. I'm interested in the S40, since Cruzbikes seem fairly lightweight and also I like the large wheels plus lower foot position that the MBB system offers. The other "sporty" recumbent bikes I've looked at either give you a small front wheel or your feet end up pretty far above your hips, which I think is not as good for circulation. I have a bit of rise from seat to BB on my Speedmachine (pic below) - maybe 6 inches? - and I do currently experience some foot numbness on long climbs. My 20 inch front wheel on the Speedmachine works OK w/ it's suspension fork, but you really every bump on those smaller wheels. I don't think I would feel confident bombing down a steep descent at 45mph with an unsuspended 20" wheel.

The one weakness people have pointed out for the Cruzbikes is front wheel slippage / loss of traction on climbs. I want a new bike specifically to be able to conquer 10%+ grade hills, which are very common here in the SF Bay area. If you're a Cruzbike rider, what's your experience with this? When does slippage happen, and is there anything you can do about it (like run a larger or more supple front tire)?

I'm also curious if anyone has observed if the seat angle of the various Cruzbike models (20 vs 40 vs 45) has much impact on wheel slippage? My take on this would be that a higher seat angle might push the rider weight forward a bit and help traction on the front wheel?

Thank you for sharing your experience,

David

 

[chicorider]

What follows is only my experience spread over eight years of riding various Cruzbikes. Others may have different experiences...

Wheel slippage while climbing is pretty rare for me, and I climb quite a lot. When it happens it is usually due to either a wet road surface or old, poor quality surfaces where lots of small bumps might create tiny moments when the wheel hops and leaves the ground. In either case, I shift down into an easier gear, ease up on the watts to spin more gently until I'm through the patch, then I get back to it. Sometimes sitting up a bit can put a little more weight on the front wheel to keep it connected. Overall body weight can make a difference too. I only weigh 130lbs., and still I don't struggle much with wheel slip. The steepest climb that I've done that I know of is 16% on my S30 on good-but-not-great asphalt, and while I could hear the tire digging for grip, I had no slipping.

I have owned and climbed on a V20/V20c, S30, and S40, and I consistently found that the S40 had the most wheel slip, the V20/V20c the least, and the S30 right in between. That seems counterintuitive to me, but those are the results for me. I could even break the S40's front wheel loose just starting from a level stop, which never happens on the V. My theory, which is actually a possible selling point for the S40, is that the rider has a steeper backrest to push against, transferring more watts to the drive wheel--enough to spin the wheel a bit on a wet or chattery climb. On the S40, I learned to ease up some, spin a little more, and the slippage went away.

For what it's worth, the V20/V20c has been my go-to ride from the beginning. It has been the most comfortable of all the Cruzbikes I've owned, the flatland speed is addictive, and if you're a climber, the thing climbs like a goat all day long.

 

[Frito Bandito]

+1 on Chico's comment on power application and cadence. What some people have written about wheel slippage should be taken with a grain of salt. I could get my V20's front wheel to slip on a steep ascent on dry asphalt, but it took me +800 watts to do so. Even then, it was for a microsecond in a very small part of the pedal stroke, and when my tires were highly inflated to something like 100psi. I was expecting it to be scary if it happened, but it wasn't at all. On an ascent in wet asphalt at night in December with some friends I could get the front wheel to slip as well on less power. However it wasn't a problem since like any rational and experienced rider would do, I took my medicine by decreasing the power and adjusting my cadence a little. Additionally, I (1) didn't stop on a steep section, and if I did have to do that, I planned ahead by having my V20 in the right gear to start again and I (2) didn't get mad at the whole situation and mash on the pedals like a madman because of my predicament.

FWIW, on my V20 I absolutely smashed my DF Strava PRs on an 1800m ascent in which on both climbs I gave them the beans on both bikes. I was under the impression it wasn't even going to be a contest, but I was shocked and stoked after checking Strava.

Edit: For the un-grumpy old man version....
I didn't stop on climbs, I pedaled smoothly and was always in a very low gear

 

[ak-tux]

I have owned and climbed on a V20/V20c, S30, and S40, and I consistently found that the S40 had the most wheel slip, the V20/V20c the least, and the S30 right in between. That seems counterintuitive to me, but those are the results for me. I could even break the S40's front wheel loose just starting from a level stop, which never happens on the V. My theory, which is actually a possible selling point for the S40, is that the rider has a steeper backrest to push against, transferring more watts to the drive wheel--enough to spin the wheel a bit on a wet or chattery climb. On the S40, I learned to ease up some, spin a little more, and the slippage went away.

Good point on the S40/S30/V20 wheel slip comparison.

I think the main reason S40 is likely to slip despite being more upright is the inherent design that puts the rider higher and further back from the front wheel. I've, always wondered why but it apppears that it was intended to create a 50/50 weight distribution while optimizing the visibility and handling of the S40 as an all-round FWD MBB that can take underseat panniers. The S30 was a bit closer to V20 but suffers from a slightly shorter wheelbase than ideal.

That said, however, I rarely experience wheel slippage on the S40 unless I put out uneven power at gradients higher than 10%. With experience and finesse I have managed to ride up 12% to 15% grades in dry weather.

If the S40 seat was at 35 -37 deg, set 2 or 3 inches lower and further forward to hug the front wheel a little bit more, then, who knows, it would be a magnificent general purpose "road" bike with minimal wheel slippage.

 

[LarryOz]

I also agree with all that has been said. To really sum it up for me - I experience wheel slip when I start pedaling unevenly and with higher power (usually due to being in the wrong gear for the grade) and once you start down that road it it hard to come out out it.
Good luck with your choice.
I konw said you were in SF Bay area - if you are planning any trips to East Coast - come see my Cruzbike Musuem on Hilton Head Island and ride both the new S40 and V20 and decide that way.

 

[Robert Holler]

"Front Wheel Slip" is often brought up by folks who have not ridden climbed on a Cruzbike on other forums, etc. I can climb steeper graded on my S40 that would stall me out 100% on any RWD recumbent... so I am already ahead anyway. I have not encounter a climb I slipped on that I would also be able to keep climbing on any other recumbent...

I will also add that if your front wheel slips on a FWD you just stop. If you get rear wheel slip (from a slick surface) on a RWD recumbent you wash out and fall. (That has been my experience.)

 

[DavidCH]

Fastest up the climb at the HPV world championship was a v20 ... sorry if it has been mentioned before.

But it's the way you ride and how and which type of tyres you ride with.

 

[David Saxton]

I also agree with all that has been said. To really sum it up for me - I experience wheel slip when I start pedaling unevenly and with higher power (usually due to being in the wrong gear for the grade) and once you start down that road it it hard to come out out it.
Good luck with your choice.
I konw said you were in SF Bay area - if you are planning any trips to East Coast - come see my Cruzbike Musuem on Hilton Head Island and ride both the new S40 and V20 and decide that way.

Oh man, I wish I were swinging by the Hilton Head area and able to see and ride the museum bikes! My nearest retailer is in Fresno area (3-4 hours away) and last time I visited, they didn't happen to have stock of all of the Cruzbike models I might want to try out. They did provide a helpful lead to line up a peer-test rise of an S40 closer to home.

Otherwise, getting to test ride these bikes is tough. I'm pretty much committed to building up a frame and am not really interested in Cruzbike's pre-build components (no 12-speed 1x options, no compatibility with hydro brakes...), so I don't feel right about using their 100-mile trial. Any additional SF Bay Area leads to try Cruzbikes would be appreciated.

I hear a lot of folks stumping for the V20, which seems to be a common theme on this forum The only things holding me back from embracing that bike are the smaller tire clearance (I'd like to run 700 x 40mm tires...) and the price (I'm not wealthy, and it's the most expensive road bike frameset I've ever seen or considered by a pretty_wide_margin).

I appreciate the tips and am thinking that wheel slip is not a big deal on dry, CA roads. As a former (upright) mountain biker, I'm pretty good at managing tire traction and feel like I can master the techniques needed for FWD given some practice.

Thanks Cruzbikers!

 

[Merczak73]

From my own experience (2019 to present), I would say that I have 1-2 instances of wheel slip a year. I would have to echo what Chico said, in that I get the slip on an incline where I am sitting up and pedaling HARD and unevenly. Once I lay back and pedal smoothly, the slip goes away. However, sitting up and cranking all out will keep me up with the best of the DF climbers in my group. So.. there ya go. Pedal smoothly and there should not be a problem. =)

 

[HeyHealy]

I ride a stock S40 that I purchased 2 years ago. I've put 1,700 miles on it so far.

I've experienced front wheel slippage on a couple rides during super steep sections.

First one was a ride from Carbondale, Colorado up to Sunlight Ski Resort. Second time was riding up the west side of Vail Pass.

Since I'm running a stock S40 with a single gear up front, I was already in my lowest gear and I could not downshift to spin more.

I've been wanting to get a V20c, but had wondered if slippage was more of problem. Based on replies above, it sounds like it's actually better.

I'm planning to get the V20c this winter.

 

[rdl03]

I'm still a relative newbie with an S40. I did have a wonderful moment recently where I made it up a short 14% pitch that used to be part of my daily commute.
I don't even try anymore to make it up my 12% section of my gravel driveway.
Reading through the comments above, it does seem like that's a lot of technique involved. Nice to know there's lots of opportunity to get better. I live outside Seattle, and there are easily a half dozen > 15% stretches within 2 miles of my house.

 

[Mathew Fy]

Of course, two-wheel drive overcomes this problem as Robert demonstrated with the T50e. None of the retreat participants could get their Cruzbike up this hill.

 

[Black Hawk Down]

Kind of a late post on this thread, but I thought I'd chime in. I ride both V20 and S40 Cruzbikes. I have a hilly daily ride. There's two hills (don't know angle) that are particularly difficult to climb. I have a very low gear of 40 X 52, but it's not low enough. I have to slip the front tire with every stroke and barely make it up the hill. I'm doing less than 3 mph, which is very difficult to navigate while the wheel is slipping. I can do it, but it's very tricky. Understand that the hill is so steep that I have to give it my all to get up it. That's on asphalt. On dirt or gravel, forget it. Any angle at at all is difficult or impossible. I did an 11K mile tour around the US and hit many dirt roads. I was walking up most of them that had a hill. The front wheel would just spin and I would fall over. I have 26 X 2 inch Schwalbe Mondale tires, which are known for good traction on and off road. It's a problem, but I would never give up my CruzBikes because of it. There's far more advantages than disadvantages.

 

[Rolling Along]

Also late to this thread. I have 1977 miles on my V20c on mostly flat Katy TX paved trails and roads. The first time I had (front) wheel slippage it really surprised me. In over 18,000 miles on a Bacchetta CA2 and more than twice that on a Bacchetta Corsa I may have had a (rear) wheel slippage once or twice period including hilly rides in other states (PA, OH, OK) on the Corsa. I have managed to slip the front wheel on the V20c several times and could probably do it on every ride.

The slippage I am talking about is only starting from a complete stop. So it is too much force too quickly on the first pedal stroke. So I have learned to shift to an easy gear when stopping and not push down real hard on the first stroke. Also if it does happen then I simply ease up on the other pedal stroke and recover in time to go forward and maintain balance. The other adjustment I make is to not stop where my front wheel is on a white painted crosswalk line. I will certainly wheel slip on the first pedal stroke if I start on a painted surface.

 

[Robert Holler]

The other adjustment I make is to not stop where my front wheel is on a white painted crosswalk line. I will certainly wheel slip on the first pedal stroke if I start on a painted surface.

This is good advice no matter what bike you are on. Also not to be adjacent the stripe if it is wet - as your foot can easily slip on the surface depending on your shoes.

 

[Black Hawk Down]

The slippage I am talking about is only starting from a complete stop. So it is too much force too quickly on the first pedal stroke. So I have learned to shift to an easy gear when stopping and not push down real hard on the first stroke. Also if it does happen then I simply ease up on the other pedal stroke and recover in time to go forward and maintain balance.

I don't normally have slippage problems when starting on the V20 as I usually start by running, then sliding down into the seat and start peddling. So I'm already moving forward when I start peddling. This doesn't work too well on a steep incline, where starting while sitting can easily cause slippage. Loose gravel or sand on the asphalt will also cause slipping. It's much less of a problem on my S40, on which I start seated.

 

[Rolling Along]

Black Hawk Down, just curious, so what do you do if riding in traffic and you come to a red light? Do you still run to get going?

To start, I make sure I am in an easy gear and clip in my starting foot. One stroke of the pedal and my other foot is around for me to clip it in too. If I miss, I clip in on the next full rotation.

 

[Black Hawk Down]

Black Hawk Down, just curious, so what do you do if riding in traffic and you come to a red light? Do you still run to get going?

To start, I make sure I am in an easy gear and clip in my starting foot. One stroke of the pedal and my other foot is around for me to clip it in too. If I miss, I clip in on the next full rotation.

If I'm on a down grade or flat surface, I'll stay in the seat and start with a foot on the pedal. If there is any difficulty with the intersection, I'll stand up and do a running start. This is especially true if I have a short window open for cross traffic.

I stopped using clipless pedals for my first tour and never went back. Too much hassle. I don't race so I can't imagine it makes any difference. I love not having to deal with them.