Gates Carbon Drive + Geared Hub

[ak-tux]

@leakyduck, I read somewhere

@leakyduck, I read somewhere that WD-40 is a no-no for bicycle chains here : http://bicycletutor.com/no-wd40-bike-chain/

Some say it's just a myth, may be it is.

But personally, when I want a clean, lubricated chain that does not leave dirt on the trousers I used a dry-lube wax type after degreasing and cleaning the chain. I use dry lube, cant remember the exact name but it was similar to this one: http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm

Dry Lubes are those that go on wet, penetrate, and then set up in a dry state. By setting up in a non-liquid state, a Dry Lube does not attract dirt to the drivetrain. You can ride through some pretty dusty, dirty conditions and the drivetrain will not turn into a greasy, grimy mess of grinding paste.

But in addition, when I was cummuniting on a bicycle, I would wear a trouser strap that I made using a piece of relective material and velcro. Like this:

Hope this helps.

 

[georgec]

photos, grease

Thank you for your comments.

Photos: I will take apart the front end & make pictures, which I will post the weekend.

Grease: I like the idea of a drier chain lub, but Sheldon Brown says it's a crime to remove the grease on my new chain:

"New chains come pre-lubricated with a grease-type lubricant which has been installed at the factory. This is an excellent lubricant, and has been made to permeate all of the internal interstices in the chain.

"This factory lube is superior to any lube that you can apply after the fact.

"Some people make the bad mistake of deliberately removing this superior lubricant. Don't do this!

"The factory lubricant all by itself is usually good for several hundred miles of service if the bike is not ridden in wet or dusty conditions. It is best not to apply any sort of lube to a new chain until it is clearly needed, because any wet lube you can apply will dilute the factory lube.

ref: http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

Generally I find Sheldon to be on the money, but on the same page he says:

"Belt drive is sometimes put forward as a solution, but it has its own serious problems and limitations."

So I hope he is not always right.

 

[ak-tux]

@georgec  It's true that the

@georgec It's true that the the factory lubricant that came with the new chain is the best. And this is precisely why WD-40 is not recommended for the chain especially when sprayed directly: It is a solvent and it will degrease the chain and leave a thin lubricating residue that will not last for long.

Degreasing a chain, I think, should only be done if a lot of grime has got embedded on it, and even that should only be done superficially. In fact some brands of wax type dry-lube only recommends a light cleaning of the chain with soapy water which in effect does not completely degrease it but only superficially removes the dirty grease. The lube is then only, applied on the dry chain. The dry lube, subsequently applied, has a cleaning effect on the chain.

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi,
For what it's worth,

Hi,

For what it's worth, there are several people who swear by using only WD40 on their chain/drive trains. Here is one topic about using it over at BROL.

Cheers,
Charles

 

[ak-tux]

Chain Waxing may be a better Solution

I must point out however that WD-40 does have some thin lubricant, but I think the general consensus is that it does not last for long. So those who use it have to apply it often.

It's indeed a big debate. But my own personal experience is that it degreases the chain.

Wax lube and paraffin waxing of chains is what fascinates me and I think I might try it some time soon.

Some interesting links here:
http://practicalcyclist.blogspot.com/2008/08/chain-maintenance-waxing.html

and

http://felixwong.com/2006/08/waxed-bicycle-chains/

A youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbVeEqYWut8

 

[MrSteve]

Chain Lube

That's the key to using light-weight oil: frequent application.

The only useful tips I have on the subject are,
-keep the chain clean. Foriegn particles in the lubricant (or even on lube-free metal surfaces) are abrasive.
-Keep the chain rust-free.

----

WD-40 was the fortieth recipe that the inventor came up with to, Displace Water (WD).

Just a fact!



-Steve

 

[Jake]

Chainglider


If you're not running the double chainring, you could ditch the chain tensioner and install a chainglider that fully encloses the chain. I've used one for a couple of years on my DF commuter and will likely transfer it to my Cruzbike conversion once I've learned to ride it. I smothered the chain in motorcycle chain grease, wrapped the chainglider around it and just said goodbye to grease stains and chain maintainence. After about 1500 miles in all weather I was starting to feel a bit guilty, and fearfully peeked inside - it was as pristene as the day I'd installed it - fresh clean grease.

 

[John Tolhurst]

I can ride a year on a new

I can ride a year on a new chain without hardly doing anything to it. It does not get road dirt on it flicked from the tire like on a RWD bike and I'm lucky to rarely ride in the rain. I did recently ride three hours in the rain (Perth to Mandurah) and that certainly did leave my chain in need of something.

I like to wipe the chain with a rag to keep it looking shiny. Actually, to take off any grime I can. And I like to add light oil to the inside surface. I don't advocate this above anyone else's paradigm for chain management, its just what I do.

 

[John Tolhurst]

Sheldon: no longer able to update his views.

Generally I find Sheldon to be on the money, but on the same page he says:

"Belt drive is sometimes put forward as a solution, but it has its own serious problems and limitations."

So I hope he is not always right.

Unfortunately for Sheldon, he is no longer able to update his views. Problems are in belt tension, which has to be pretty tight; and the limitations are that unlike a chain, you can't adjust its length, to create a belt of any length you require, and you cant run it with a tensioner, so the bike frame and gearing choices have to be determined before you purchase the belt. No flexibility. Belt drive is a solution, but only when you can control the problem.

 

[georgec]

Hijacking my own thread...

Wow, I really hijacked my own thread with...

> "BTW: chain grease is already on my pants..."

didn't I?

But now, as previously requested, here are pictures of putting the Shimano Nexus 8 geared hub into the Silvio front end.

These 3 pix show the left side.

1) This is the blue Shimano Nexus no-turn washer that I ground down to sandwich between the fork and dropout. The dis-coloration is from the heat of the grinder.

2) The no-turn washer in place on the axle and the mods to the left dropout. It has been drilled out to 3/8" and a 2mm relief has been machined on the outer side.

3) The left side assembled. There is a stainless 3/8" SAE washer under the axle nut. I also shaved 2mm off of the nut that holds the black dust cover on the hub so that the hub width was reduced to 130mm to fit inside the fork. The dust cover nut is vaguely visable on the inside of the fork in this picture

 

[georgec]

Here is the right side

1) the Shimano Nexus right side (green) no turn washer

2) the back side of the washer showing how it has been ground to reduce thickness

3) the thickness of the no turn washers after grinding is about 2mm (.105")

4) The no turn washer in place on the axle and the modified right dropout. The outer side of the dropout (facing away from the camera) has been machined away to be symetrical with the left dropout. This leaves part of the opening that the derailer hanger normally fits in.

5) To center the axle, I put a stainless 3/8" SAE on the inside of the dropout...

6) ... and another one on the outside.

7) The right dropout in place.

Note: This photo also shows a really cool feature of the hub... a shift indicator with yellow lines. When these line up, the hub is in 4th gear. This makes adjusting the shifter a snap.

 

[georgec]

Here is the single-speed drive and shifter

A Shimano Biopace 42 chain ring, a 20 tooth cog, and the chain made up neat using a half link completes the drive train.

I didn't use a chain tensioner. The chain seems to stay on just fine (as long as I am able to keep the bike upright

The Jtek bar end shifter is on the right and works amazingly well.

 

[ak-tux]

Great Stuff! Very

Great Stuff! Very creative.

Shimano will have a better fit Alfine IGH for road bikes with Di2 enabled Alfine in 2013. Check this link: http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/bikes-and-gear-features/shimano-reveals-details-2013-road-components

 

[Romagjack]

Nice work George. Now we'll

Nice work George. Now we'll need some ride reports.

ak-tux, thanks for the link. I'm drooling (and dreaming) of a Silvio 2 with the Alfine/disc brake Di2 combo. I'm already spoiled with the IGH/disc brakes that comes natively on my Quest 2. I don't have the skills that George used for his Silvio mod, but can see myself "biking with the big boys" with the Alfine setup. Wonder if the the new 2013 Alfine will fit the standard road bike dropouts of the Silvio?

 

[ak-tux]

@Romagjack, Well I can't tell

@Romagjack, Well I can't tell whether it will fit the silvio or not, but we'll just wait and see and let some people who can afford it try it out

 

[mason.davis]

Are you going to go any further with the belt drive?

It seems strange that Gates warn against the installation of a belt tensioner when belts on other applications (model helicopters, cars, lorries, etc.) use them all the time?

 

[John Tolhurst]

The Gates belt is obviously

The Gates belt is obviously not engineered the same as others, and that is to be expected. light weight and low rolling resistance call for particular solutions and trade offs. Curving the other way, over a roller, was probably a trade off to those other requirements. Remember the old designer adage, strong, light, cheap, pick which two you want.

 

[georgec]

I must say, the simple direct chain drive is quite nice ...

mason.davis wrote:

> Are you going to go any further with the belt drive?

Yes, I plan to make the parts this winter and switch to belt drive in the spring.

I have a good CAD design of the custom dropouts completed. I figure some time on the bike may generate new ideas, so I have put the belt drive on hold until it starts snowing (ETA January).

Meanwhile I am riding ~5 days a week and really enjoying the Silvio. I must say, the simple direct chain drive is quite nice ... with no derailer it is amazingly quiet and well behaved. So if the belt drive proves problematic, I can always fall back to this chain setup.

> It seems strange that Gates warn against the installation of a belt tensioner when belts on other applications (model helicopters, cars, lorries, etc.) use them all the time?

I agree. Either they are being conservative, or there is some aspect of this that I don't get.

 

[John Tolhurst]

different belt

I would not assume the same belt construction, as on belts for other jobs ... Bike stuff has to be very light, its likely its construction creates such a constraint. It also has to be low friction, could be another reason for the difference.

 

[Andrew 1973]

Forward Components Eccentric BB

GeorgeC: Forward Components makes eccentric bottom bracket cups that are designed to allow for chain tension adjustment. These cups are useful when converting a road bike or MTB with vertical, non-adjustable dropouts into a single speed. This could potentially provide enough adjustment that you could use the gates belt drive.

I am not familiar enough with the Silvio to know how this would work, but it seems to be worth looking into since you've come this far aleady.