Getting realistic about climbing with a V20

[John Formsma]

Is anyone faster climbing, or improved their times on their favorite hills with a V20, compared to a DF bike?

I'm a new recumbent rider, the V20 being the first bent ever ridden. Now have roughly 250 miles, mostly flat. My questions will likely be answered with experience, but I wanted to ask anyway.

I did my first hills last week, and it's noticeably slower and with more effort than a DF. I'm sure it'll become easier with experience (like everything else on the V20). Since I was pretty good on hills with a DF bike, I'm wondering if I should mentally accept that all hills are gonna be slower than a DF, and I'll never again get a KOM on a climb.

 

[chicorider]

I put in 27 years on DF bikes before moving to the Vendetta five years ago because of lower back pain. At 130 pounds, climbing has always been my strength. Was I slower on the V at first when climbing? Definitely. Am I slower on the V when climbing now? Yes, but not by much. Am I faster than I ever was on every other kind of terrain? Oh yeah! By quite a bit. I have no climbing KOMs, but I have a lot of them everywhere else, even while living in an active cycling community. When climbing during an organized ride, I pass many people, while few pass me, so I don't feel like I've lost much in the switch. And for the benefits that the V has given me over a DF bike (all-day comfort, wicked speed, the ability to go long, and that flying-a-fighter-jet feeling), I wouldn't go back.

 

[Greg S]

I have an S40, not a V20 but I'll respond anyway. I'm currently alternating (not strict rotation) between the S40 and a DF. The S40 is apples-to-apples about 8-10 lbs heavier than the DF. I have power meters on both bikes (Asioma pedals on the DF, PowerTap hub on the S40). I've pretty conclusively established that my power output and climbing speeds are essentially the same. I've compared results between both bikes on three different hills, two that are long but not particularly steep (4-5%) and one that's long with a steep (11%) section. Again, the results across a number of efforts on both bikes are essentially the same.

More details for those who are interested here and here.

 

[3bs]

once you get the hang of powering with your arms and tearing the bike in half against your leg drive, climbing evens out a lot more, but never better on a CB or any bent for that matter, except the extremely steep and extremely long when on a trike, because you have no minimum speed and can stop and start at will. i can still trike a hill that an upright will not be able to do.

i cannot say i am faster at climbing than i was on an upright. bike weighs more and leverage is different and low speed balance is different.

but i can say that i am faster overall in mixed terrain, rollie polies, because of the change in riding style, which translates to going faster up hill because you hit the hill faster.

long steep climbs suck. but i think they suck on any bike. i have ridden my v20 out west at least once a year. the bike will climb. since i ride a bent by choice not by need, if all they are doing is climbing, and there are few or no flats, and limited downhill, i either don't ride the route or take a trike or a upright.

 

[trplay]

I'm wondering if I should mentally accept that all hills are gonna be slower than a DF, and I'll never again get a KOM on a climb.

This is mostly dependant on your current condition. If you are at a Pro or near Pro level of fitness you can pretty much expect to be slightly slower on the recumbent when climbing. With this said, you will generally gain this back plus some with the recumbents advantages elsewhere. An average Joe in moderate condition who rides a good bit can become faster at climbing on a recumbent than his current DF climbing abilities. But, it takes more work than most anticipate. It is not magic, rather lots of hard watts going upgrades. Could he do the same thing on the DF? Yes, but comparing one to the other unless it is a dead draw one has to be faster. So the answer is whichever you train on the hardest until you reach a certain level of fitness. The budding cyclist on the other hand can see huge gains simply by riding.

 

[cpml123]

I have an S40, not a V20 but I'll respond anyway. I'm currently alternating (not strict rotation) between the S40 and a DF. The S40 is apples-to-apples about 8-10 lbs heavier than the DF. I have power meters on both bikes (Asioma pedals on the DF, PowerTap hub on the S40). I've pretty conclusively established that my power output and climbing speeds are essentially the same. I've compared results between both bikes on three different hills, two that are long but not particularly steep (4-5%) and one that's long with a steep (11%) section. Again, the results across a number of efforts on both bikes are essentially the same.

More details for those who are interested here and here.

Hey that gives me hope! I have been riding my S40 for 3 years, still a little slower going uphill. I just thought it's due to the bike being 10 lb heavier and gravity not pulling my legs down. I guess I will keep working at it!

 

[trplay]

If someone is out there seriously looking for an effective way to get better at climbing this is one way. Get a quality smart trainer and start riding the hilly routes on Zwift. Better yet come race with us. Why is it as effective as it is? It starts you straight on the objective saving you time. Second, you need as little as 30 minutes a day or night. Does it work? It did for me. I have 15 or so years with documented 7K-15K mile year averages. Then I started Zwifting. I've done 6 Gap on a trike, I climbed Wolf Creek pass on a Silvio. I've completed the Blue Ridge and Smokey mountain Parkways. I have those T-shirts. Now I don't average 300 outdoor miles a year but plenty of climbing indoors on Zwift. Now, when I do climb the local hills that use to require some huffing and puffing I don't even have to come off the big ring. It works and I have the data to show that it does.

 

[John Formsma]

test reply

 

[John Formsma]

Appreciate the replies! Especially from Greg S with the data from the power meter. I am using the same hub-based PM from my DF bike, so I'm also getting a good comparison between bikes.


chicorider, I've already remarked to several of my riding buddies about it being "wicked fast." It's pretty freaking fun. I'm still drifting a bit, and wobbly getting started, but really enjoying how fast it is compared to the other. Since I use a power meter, I have a direct comparison to input vs. output. Amazing how much faster for the same watts. (And also amazing how using different areas of the same muscles. Muscles aren't quite adjusted yet, but getting there.)


trplay, nowhere close to Pro level. At 50 years old, my FTP on a DF was around 240-250W. Not a lightweight either, at 165-170lbs at 5'9". But I always loved hills, and enjoy the suffering.


3 b ess, I'm going to get the hang of what that feels like. When I did the first grade of 8+%, I was a little shocked by how unweighted the front became. Couldn't hold a line worth anything, and almost ran off the road...but figured out why pretty quickly. It'll get better.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I don't do much climbing on my V20, and I'm still relatively new (4 months) on it so I don't quite have my recumbent legs yet, but they are getting there. With that said, I am still getting PRs on Strava going over the same routes, so I know it is faster than my DF bike with clipon aerobars. I don't have a power meter on my V20 yet, but I'd guess I can put down about 90-95% of the power on the pedals by doing as 3bs wrote in pulling on the bars for that extra bit. The funny thing is that I am actually worried about cracking my CF bars so I will go back to the original aluminum ones shortly because under heavy effort I can hear the occasional crack in the current bars (leftover bars that have been crashed and the offending piece cut off).

I read or watched somewhere, maybe Fast Fitness Tips, that aerodynamics on DF bikes have more effect above about 10kph than the difference between sitting on the seat or standing on the pedals, so I wouldn't get out of the saddle until I slowed to 10kph on my DF bike on climbs. At least in my mind, unscientifically, since the V20 is much more aero than my DF bike, the improved aerodynamics of it at least match the (guestimated) decreased power output. So for me, my answer would be that it can climb just as well as a DF.

In March, when I do a pretty significant climb I will take my V20 for the first time on it and see how it compares with my DF bike.

 

[Bruce B]

"I'm a new recumbent rider, the V20 being the first bent ever ridden. Now have roughly 250 miles, mostly flat."
Welcome to the gang!
Along with climbing practice starting from a complete stop. Starting straight up hill or degrees off center or even starting downhill and then making a U turn, depending on traffic, are all useful.

 

[M.J]

You'll get there. I think the v20 climbs as well as any 27ish lb bicycle. I've been riding mine for about 6 months and 3,000 miles. I had a Metabike for several months before that, which was my first recumbent.
I don't have a personal basis of comparison to my performance on an upright because I don't come from a DF background and have never seriously ridden one. I can tell you that I'm in at least the top third of the leaderboard on all my local climbs with several top 10s and a couple of KOMs on less popular climbs.
The hills around here are in and out of a river valley, so are short and sprinty rather than super long.

 

[John Formsma]

Today was the second ride with hills. The experience was so much better than last Saturday. I had watched some videos on climbing technique after last Saturday's ride, and applied that, plus the suggestions from here. So much better, and I was able to be reclined on most of the hills without feeling uncomfortable.

I know climbing will be a little slower on hills because of a heavier bike, but after today, it's pretty encouraging. (We don't have steep hills here longer than 0.6 mile. But there are a lot of short and steep, with pitches above 12% sometimes.)

Even set a KOM on a flat segment. I've been working on getting this segment since 2013 when my riding buddy and I were together. On that day in 2013, we had a nice tailwind, he was drafting me, and then came out from my draft right at the end to set a high speed. Today with the V20 it wasn't even that hard to get the segment. Now...I did have a 10-14mph cross/tail winds. But I've done that segment enough on the DF bike with even higher direct tailwinds. Never have gotten within 2 seconds of his time. And today it was by 5 seconds! This bike is wicked fast. And I love it.

https://www.strava.com/activities/4746277225

 

[Frito Bandito]

Nice going on the KOM John. I see many more of them in your future.

It looks like you and I have the exact same bike in the same color. I had the original disc wheels on it that came with the bike when I bought it locally, but replaced the rear wheel from my DF bike to the front, then bought a matching 80mm wheel for the back. A full disc on the back would be even faster but I think a 50mm deep on the front is enough for me. Anything deeper now might have me wobbling into trouble. Maybe later if I find an excellent deal on an 80mm disc wheel. I would have loved to stay with the disc brakes, but the only time I ride in the rain is a miscalculation in weather so rim brakes it is for a while on this bike.



Now, you can go out there and start taking those KOMs on a regular basis to give the DF bikes something to shoot for

 

[John Formsma]

Nice going on the KOM John. I see many more of them in your future.

It looks like you and I have the exact same bike in the same color. I had the original disc wheels on it that came with the bike when I bought it locally, but replaced the rear wheel from my DF bike to the front, then bought a matching 80mm wheel for the back. A full disc on the back would be even faster but I think a 50mm deep on the front is enough for me. Anything deeper now might have me wobbling into trouble. Maybe later if I find an excellent deal on an 80mm disc wheel. I would have loved to stay with the disc brakes, but the only time I ride in the rain is a miscalculation in weather so rim brakes it is for a while on this bike.

View attachment 10832

Now, you can go out there and start taking those KOMs on a regular basis to give the DF bikes something to shoot for

I bought the bike used about 1.5 months ago. The picture is from the seller. I've changed it a bit...flipped the curved slider to the 'down' position. It came with disc brakes that have never been installed, along with a bunch of accessories. Today I was riding with the older version of the "Race Case." I think that gives a slight aero boost. It might have been all mental, but it seemed faster. I can't imagine how fast it would go with some deep-section carbon wheels. (I love yours, by the way! Always have been a Campy fan.) Maybe one day.... Right now, the wheels are some that I built up myself, and have used on the DF bike for maybe 15K miles. They're solid as heck, and the drive wheel has a Powertap hub power meter. I'll probably keep using them, as they are bought and paid for, and ride quite nice.

Yes, I'm totally looking forward to some more KOM's in my future.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I am sure the Race Case helps at least a little. You might want to check on some of the tail boxes as well. Not only more aero, but looks like you can stick a lot of stuff in there for extended trips too.
Which ones (hoops, hubs and spokes) do you have now? I've been thinking of some custom built wheels but so far haven't bit the bullet. Something deep, a little wide, tubeless compatible, more (and aero) spokes, and disc brakes would be great.

 

[John Formsma]

It's an older version of this race case.

The rims are HED Belgium Plus, with pretty traditional DT Swiss Champion spokes. Nothing fancy. Hubs are a Powertap hub for the drive wheel, and the matching hub for the other wheel. I've run them as road tubeless, except the tire on the drive won't seal against the rim. (First time trying a Bontrager R3 28mm, and I'm using a tube in it, but with a little Slime sealant in the tube.)

The next wheel set will have disc brakes, be carbon and tubeless, and wide. I'm thinking of maybe going with a 30mm tire with these, but at least 28mm.

 

[Frito Bandito]

Those are pretty nice. That sucks about the drive not sealing, but at least with a tube the power loss isn't so much these days. 28s are nice. I have them on my commuter and they eat up the small curbs we have here. Now that you mention about widths I think I would choose a width that will give me an option from 25mm-32mm because there really isn't a need for 23mm anymore at my age. I am running 25mm on the Bullets but the roads here are smooth as butter. Throw in that I weigh about 78kg so there isn't a need to go bigger yet, but I know 28mm tires would fit on the Bullets. I think those would get me through just about any situation I come across except gravel.

 

[paco1961]

No huge hills here in the Louisville, KY area. Most common is 350’ at ave of around 7-8%. A couple 650’ at 8-9% w occasional 14% spikes. On all but the longest and steepest climbs, by far my best result is on my DF singlespeeds. Both my cheep-o aluminum frame and my Ti (the one my wife calls the Sunday convertible T-bird) weigh in at about 17.5lbs. Gearing is 46:16 and 48:17. They fly up hills as long as the grade stays below 10% and don’t last more than a mile or so. The only KOMs I’ve recorded anywhere. With a ss you have no choice but to keep up the cadence.

On both my S40 and V20 I am a bit slower on those same climbs. The steeper the hill, the more the DF wins. Long, gradual climbs things even out for me between the CB and DF.

The one thing I still think most DFs have over CB is the last 40 yards of a climb. If you’re in a race and grinding up along, 7% grade and others are right there with you spin for spin, I always love dropping to one or two harder gears, standing in the pedals and pounding big watts for those last 40 yards. I know energetically it’s a net loss but psychologically, if you’re the guy getting dropped, recovery is tough. Can’t hop on that big gear or two when you can’t stand in the pedals!

But overall, the CB wins in my mind. Give me 30-50 miles of gentle rollers and my V any day!

 

[John Formsma]

Thanks, paco1961. I definitely agree with what you wrote about standing to climb for the last bit of the climb. That is my philosophy as well.

I actually have a Surly Cross Check single speed that I built up a couple years ago. I use it on gravel rides with a 46:18, and on pavement with 46:16. Have never attempted a hill segment with it.

Totally agree about the V20 being a keeper. After my ride today, I decided that I would always have it even if my shoulder can get repaired in the future. It is so fun!