Has anyone tried Ultegra 2x11spd 6800?

[Taveray]

I'm about to order a Vendetta frame and want to fit a Shimano Ultegra 6800 2x11 speed compact groupset. I like the 6800 because the compact version has 52/36 and 50/34 chain rings and the wider cluster range (11-32). That should give my aging legs the grace they need to get up the Adelaide Hills! John T says the Cruzbike team hasn't tried the 6800 yet. So two key questions:
1. Does anyone know if the 6800 fits on the Vendetta successfully? I assume it should as it is very similar to the 6700 10-speed (except the 6800 hub width between the drop-outs is 131 mm compared with 130 for the 6700, I believe. I am assuming that some gentle nudging will fix that problem, but would like the thoughts of others.) Also, with a 38.5" x-seam, John recommends the SMALL Vendetta frame for me.
2. I haven't been able to ascertain, from the web, whether the 6800 is one model that takes the 50/34, 52/36 and 53/39 or has a normal and compact version as the 6700 did. Does anyone know the answer? (I couldn't find any relevant info on the Shimano website. A dealer told me they are frustratingly slow at updating it.) Having the option to fit all three chain ring combinations would be great, but 52/36 with 11-28 would a good next best. (On a DF in the past, because I'm a bit slow on the up-hills, I've found 53x11 very handy for catching the peleton downhill and wind-assisted on the flat.) I have considered just settling for the 6700 but, in Australia, both models are about the same price, as are the wheels.

In a recent post, I asked if anyone had tried the Vendetta or Silvio 2 in group riding. I was trying to decide between them, but 2-months delay on the S2 helped with that decision. However, I'm still keen to know if anyone has tried it.

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts, as I am spending many hours on research to get the right bike for me - and am starting to get funny looks from my wife! Cheers, Philip

 

[Eric Winn]

Hi Philip,
I haven't really

Hi Philip,

I haven't really dug much into Shimano's driveline products so I can't speak to them but with SRAM it is pretty easy to mate up a larger range MTB cassette and MTB rear dérailleur (RD) with their road cranks and shifters. This is what I did on my Vendetta. I have a 53-39 front, 11-36 back, and SRAM MTB X9 TYPE 2 RD along with SRAM Rival brifters and brakes. Note the cage lock feature on my RD makes removing and replacing the front drive wheel waaaay easier. My RD also has a clutch bearing which just about eliminates chain bounce. This is particularly nice since the drive line on the medium Vendetta is a bit longer than a typical bike.

You sound like you are about my size. Go with the medium Vendetta and just trim the end of the slider, it's easy. You'll end up with a Vendetta that looks like a Vendetta. The small has some kinks in the slider and the boom is different and was really designed to accommodate much shorter folks. When I and others about your size were considering the small we were all directed to the medium with instructions to trim the slider - just don't shove the slider too far down into the boom before you trim it else you'll get it stuck. Jim and Maria have a technique for getting it unstuck - but it ain't pretty - no it is not. It is however freaking hilarious...

I don't really do group rides at the moment so I'm not sure what features or aspects of riding you are looking for. I've drafted briefly behind some DFs and other recumbents while waiting for an opening to pass them. I've pulled briefly for a few people who jumped on my wheel but on the Vendetta I've found myself pulling away and they drop off. I've ridden in the mass start of the N24HC where things were really tight for the first 3 to 5 miles and still a wee bit crowded for a few miles after that. I felt comfortable riding in close with everyone with a lot of jockeying around of various bikes for positioning but this meant riding slower than usual - the Vendetta is easy fast, likes fast as do I so fast is what I usually end up doing.

-Eric

 

[Jake]

If you're looking at the 2014

If you're looking at the 2014 grupo ?http://www.competitivecyclist.com/shimano-ultegra-6800-cranks?CMP_ID=SH_SHP0014&mv_pc=r147&mr:referralID=1f7492e4-06ba-11e3-a969-001b2166c2c0
then :

"Gone are the days of the five-arm spider, and the necessity for a separate compact crankset has also fallen by the wayside."

So you'll be in luck. If you have/want previous years, then the above claim sounds like they did have compact versions. I'm not sure what size inner rings are available in compact, but for non-compact (130 BCD) you'll not find a chainring less than 38.

 

[Doug Burton]

11-speed drivetrains...

The component manufacturers make it very hard for us to predict where they are going, because they want to protect their intellectual property until the last minute.

However, we make cutting-edge bikes and we want our customers to be able to use the latest and best.

Vendetta and Silvio 2.0 are very compatible with 10-speed systems because we know the ins and outs of the component dimensions.

11-speed systems, not so much. We tend to focus on SRAM and Shimano, because Campy seems to march to its own drummer, and they don't offer MTB systems. SRAM and Shimano have some inter-compatibility among their Road and MTB systems, which gives us a wider set of choices for gear ranges,

My understanding of Shimano 11-speed (and SRAM by extension, because they seem to want to stay compatible with each other) is that the cassette is 1.85 mm wider overall, and the cassette spider has been designed to move the entire system closer to the spokes.

So there is a possibility that the 11-speed cassette will be very close to the weld that attaches the fork legs to the dropout.

Chain interference with the weld is possible in the top gear cog, or when shifting from the top to the next-to-top gear.

The irony in John's exceptionally-rigid front triangle designs is that they tolerate slight mis-alignment of components very well, to the point where a properly set-up drivetrain makes the mis-alignment transparent to the rider.

For 11-speed cassettes, you may need to add a 2mm spacer to the drive side of the hub to have the chain clear the dropout weld. Once the derailleur is set-up properly, you won't notice this at all. Simply align the tire centerline to the fork/brake caliper centerline when you install the wheel and pull the QR up tight.

The ability to properly locate the axle in the dropout is unaffected by the spacer, since the locating function is a result of the QR pressure on the dropout, rather than the stub axle depth of insertion in the dropout.

I am extremely interested in any feedback from folks using 11-speed drivetrains, because part of my job around here is to make these systems work for the entire community. If you are having difficulties, please contact me directly. Photos always help.

Cheers,

Doug

 

[KiwiGuy]

Does 135mm hub help

Hi Doug

I notice that the road disc hubs for 11-speed are shifting to 135mm. Even the regular road hubs seem to be moving to 131mm to accommodate the need for more space.

Would moving to a 135mm hub (as used for example on the new HED Ardennes Plus disc brake wheel set) solve this issue??

Kind regards...

 

[Taveray]

11 speed Ultegra on a Silvio 2

Thanks Jake & Doug

Useful advice. Yes, I checked in a bike shop that the new Ultegra crankset takes all 4 different chain ring combinations that they offer - from 53-39 to the MTB one. That is very attractive for me.

You raise a good point Doug, that the 11-tooth sprocket might be 1.85 mm closer to the weld even though the dropout to dropout width of the 11 speed is 1 mm wider than the 10 speed. I found a good blueprint diagram comparing the X-sections of the two (but couldn't find it tonight). When I do find it I'll check the impact of the wider cluster - and post the link to the diagram.

 

[Doug Burton]

Our "official" position...

... is that Vendetta and Silvio were designed to use 10-speed components and double chainrings. These setups work fine out-of-the-box.

11-speed systems will require us to do more development.

The Ultegra Triple requires modifications to work, but it's doable. Other triples with 74mm BCD granny rings will not work at all from our perspective. This applies to Silvio 2.0 as well.

This is the price we pay for ultimate rigidity and power transfer in the front triangle assembly. We have been willing to pay that price considering the ability to support the class of performance that made Maria's awesome RAAM results possible.

The Vendetta is the SR-71 of MBB bikes. Some fettling is required to achieve these heights. A Ferrari is a greater challenge to support than a Honda. The results are concommitttent with the effort in our view. If you are a Vendetta pilot, you are driving a Ferrari 458 in bike terms. You are on the cutting edge with us at Cruzbike. Not everyone is well-suited for the challenges this performance level requires. You're not Walmart customers.

We're willing (enthusiastic) to help you get this performance on a one-to-one basis. But it's not cookie-cutter stuff, and you'll need to invest your time in getting it to go well if you depart from the base (10-speed) formula.

But you're out there pushing the envelope with us. And you'll get the performance others may not get.

We are proud and grateful to have you with us on this quest for ultimate human powered performance.

Cheers,

Doug

 

[Doug Burton]

135mm Hubs

Hi Kiwiguy,

"I notice that the road disc hubs for 11-speed are shifting to 135mm. Even the regular road hubs seem to be moving to 131mm to accommodate the need for more space. Would moving to a 135mm hub (as used for example on the new HED Ardennes Plus disc brake wheel set) solve this issue??"

DF frame manufacturers such as Litespeed have approached this issue by setting their rear OLD at 132.5mm. This allows them to accommodate 130mm and 135mm OLD hubs essentially with transparency to the rider. I think in the real world 11-speed drivetrains will require 132 - 135mm spacing.

The Silvio 2.0 I built handled the 135mm disc hub I installed in it with no drama. A little tight, yes, but in practical terms it worked fine.

I personally expect that as cassettes get wider, 135mm will become the new road bike standard, With all the existing MTB development on the 135mm standard, it's just too easy in engineering terms to go there, rather than avoid it for 130mm orthodoxy. The front derailleur has always been the challenge to smooth, efficient shifting - the rear derailleur has always been the easier challenge for smoothness and precision.

12, 13, 15 cog cassettes? Why not? You need a wider OLD to do that.

Cheers,

Doug

 

[Taveray]

10 or 11 speed

Thanks for your comments Doug. On the weekend, I changed my mind and ordered a Silvio 2, not the Vendetta toward which I had been leaning. Observing the laid-back head angle in Vendetta photos, I realised that would impede my enjoyment of the countryside through which I was riding. Head hight, visibility and neck comfort were other (potential) factors. So I decided to put up with lugging an extra 2 kg up the hills (5 kg more than I'm used to).

Back to the 10 - 11 speed issue: The switch to S2 means I have 6-8 weeks to resolve this now. I will find the blueprint diagram (referred to above) on Thursday, review it and send it. I take your point that there would be some development work to go 11 speed. Are you thinking that might be possible in the next few weeks, would it be something I would do when I have frame and groupset here, or should I go with the triple to get the range? I am willing to get involved in some development work towards the 11-speed option, but need to know what you have in mind Doug. I have reasonable mechanical aptitude to undertake minor adaptations. E.g. I understand your suggestion of the insertion of a 2 mm spacer and that is certainly well within the minor category.

So thanks for your offer of support and I look forward to your thoughts on the above. Cheers, Philip

 

[KiwiGuy]

Thanks Doug

Thanks for your comments Doug.

I expect that you are right regarding a shift to a 135mm standard for road bikes - for the reasons you mention plus what I'd think would be the desire of framebuilders to settle on one standard as well.

I'm planning on 11-speed components and a double chainring for my Vendetta. I know this work takes time. Do John and you have an estimate as to when the development will be completed on the Vendetta for the change to 11-speed?

Kind regards....

 

[thebean]

Great discussion here!  I was

Great discussion here! I was just chatting with the shop about a 2x11 for my Silvio so that I can avoid a triple. Looking forward to your work on this. I also am strongly considering the Di2 system. This would be ultimate!

 

[tmctguer]

Request for Doug Burton to

Request for Doug Burton to clarify this comment:

"Vendetta and Silvio 2.0 are very compatible with 10-speed systems because we know the ins and outs of the component dimensions.
.....We tend to focus on SRAM and Shimano, because Campy seems to march to its own drummer, and they don't offer MTB systems."

Would a Campagnolo 10 Speed Record system be compatible with the Vendetta? I am trying to decide which way to outfit my Vendetta frame and have many spare Campagnolo Record parts. But before I buy a Record bottom bracket, I want to get your opinion.

Thanks.

 

[BentBierz]

I am currently waiting for

I am currently waiting for SRAM 22 WiFli parts to become available (have been waiting for a good long while) but am concerned now after reading this thread. I hate to be the test dummy for this because the parts are not cheap. Are these not parts that Cruzbikes can test for all of us so that they can answer our questions about workability and their own as far as future compatability?

When I commented earlier about some of the issues that bugged me about the disc brake adaptation on the Silvio I was told that it is, after all, a road bike. Using that same logic I would think CB would be all over doing their own testing on what is the next generation of gearing instead of waiting for a customer to pop for the expense only to find out that it won't work.

 

[Andrew 1973]

@ TMCTGUER

I'm not Doug Burton, but I do run Campagnolo Centaur 10 on my beloved Silvio. The external diameter of the cups are in keeping with what you'd find from SRAM or Shimano. With that said, I imagine that the Campy external BB would work just fine on your Vendetta.

If I'm mistaken, you'll soon find out from Doug

 

[John Tolhurst]

All over it, yes, except that

All over it, yes, except that the fork which has to accept the 11 speed cassette is not due for remanufacture. Minimum order quantities, rule my life.

 

[BentBierz]

Hi John,
Not quite certain I

Hi John,

Not quite certain I understand the response but it seems to confirm that the existing fork is not 11 speed compatible and that an 11 speed fork is not being made.

 

[Rod]

Campy 11 speed

I have Campy 11 speed on my Silvio 1.5. I love my Silvio and my Campy 11 speed. I did not build it myself and am not aware of any problems. Have gone about 700 miles this summer.

 

[BentBierz]

Rod,
Interesting...wonder how

Rod,

Interesting...wonder how the Campy compares in stack height to the SRAM?

 

[gilpeel2002]

11 speed fitting Silvio

I cannot speak for any manufacturer but Campy. I now have Silvio 1.5. I also started with Silvio 1.0. The cassette for 11 speed Campy occupies the same space as 10 speed Campi. 10 speed Campi is about 1/32 inch wider than 10 speed Shimano. . I believe that 10 speed Sram is the same as 10 speed Shimano I have Campy Super Record 12-29 cassette and 165mm compact cranks 50/34 on both of my Silvios and have had no problem what-so-ever.The external bottom bracket cups sit perfectly out board of the clamps. I have run both with and without the 150mm chainstay extension and there is no problem.

 

[BentBierz]

I've looked online and have

I've looked online and have not been able to find any Campy or SRAM specs regarding stack height...might contact Universal Cycles to see if they have any info.