Heart Rate

[Rick Moore]

I bought a V-20 a couple of months ago and have ridden about 500 miles and I am starting to get comfortable enough to start doing intervals and do some tempo riding.

However, I’m noticing that my heart rate is about 5-10 beats lower for any given effort than it was on my DF.

Is this a normal occurrence when a person switches from a DF to the Cruzbike? If so, will it stay this way?

 

[RojoRacing]

The forum will claim this is normal and remain so but my experience is it starts out that way till you get as comfortable on the V20 as your DF bike then the numbers will match up. This is assuming you get the bike to fit you in a way that you can exert your full potential, if your only 90% comfortable don't expect 100% performance.

 

[paco1961]

The short answer is, yup! The vastly improved aero position is the primary culprit. You’ll just have to get used to riding with the next fastest group on your club rides!

 

[RojoRacing]

Just want to point out Rick said effort and not speed those things mean very different things when changing platforms.

 

[paco1961]

Quite true. My mistake. But I’m almost a year in and still running about 10% lower HR on similar efforts. I have generally felt that the pedaling geometry just feels more efficient but that also not having to support your upper body’s weight w arms, hands and shoulders and keep head up and supported has to take effort which translates to work being done and a bump in HR. Just a non-engineer plant guys opinion.

 

[Rick Moore]

Quite true. My mistake. But I’m almost a year in and still running about 10% lower HR on similar efforts. I have generally felt that the pedaling geometry just feels more efficient but that also not having to support your upper body’s weight w arms, hands and shoulders and keep head up and supported has to take effort which translates to work being done and a bump in HR. Just a non-engineer plant guys opinion.

That is what I was wondering. My thought is if you are essentially laying down then your heart doesn’t have to fight gravity as much....in theory it should be less work to pump the blood throughout the body, so in theory if my legs are working the same laying down as when sitting up on a DF, then in theory the heart rate should be less. So what do y’all think?

 

[benphyr]

...laying down then your heart doesn’t have to fight gravity as much....less work to pump the blood throughout the body...legs are working the same laying down as when sitting up on a DF, then in theory the heart rate should be less...

My gut says this may be an oversimplification. And adaption to position definitely comes into play.

 

[jond]

Actually using a power meter I do see an effect on heart rate Typically my heart rate differs by 10 bpm going back to df plus and from df to vendetta negative.after two weeks everything is back within margin. Using a baseline of 220 watts hr 140bpm. Adaptation.

Obviously heart rate can be affected by many many factors. Dehydration excitement boredom sickness a hot hottie etc. And most importantly your own unique physiology.

Definitely the free speed of the vendetta can lull you into a false sense. It’s why I used power meters hub based.

Now I tend to not use them and don’t sweat the minutiae as well I’m getting on and all I’m wanting is fitness fun.

I’ve yet to meet a man or woman who doesn’t love laying down on the job.

 

[RojoRacing]

Again my response is based of effort and not speed because if I’m pedaling my heart out to better myself what speed I’m going doesn’t matter.

I’m going to go with the good old saying of “just because you can do it doesn’t mean it can’t be done”.

People said recumbents couldn’t climb fast because no one had done it yet, now it has.

People say your HR will be lower on a recumbent vs a DF because that’s what most people experience but does mean it’s a fact of the platform or the variable of the rider? If you think it’s the former how do you explain someone who can do multiple rides on different days and different platforms all at the same brisk effort and be unable to tell what bike each ride was done on because the data(excluding speed) is identical?

If I forget to label what bike I was on for s ride in Strava I have a hell of a time figuring out what bike I did it on after the fact. One of my best efforts of 50 miles at 280watts is one such ride and to this day I can’t remember if it was on the DF or V20. Because the ride isn’t flat and is known for variable winds I can’t even figure it out by the speed data.

 

[jond]

Rojo everyone is different. I take two weeks before similar numbers appear from platform to platform. Albeit I do not ride multiple platforms usually in one day.

You must not need any adaption phase.

Perhaps it’s age related phenomena after all most of us ain’t tin lids anymore. Lol.

Maybe you are unique being a relatively young cruzbikin gun.

 

[super slim]

Rojo everyone is different. I take two weeks before similar numbers appear from platform to platform. Albeit I do not ride multiple platforms usually in one day.

You must not need any adaption phase.

Perhaps it’s age related phenomena after all most of us ain’t tin lids anymore. Lol.

Maybe you are unique being a relatively young cruzbikin gun.

Age IS catching up to you!!!
You OLD NSW fart!
220 w for a 140 bpm heart rate is good, EVEN for a NSW person!

 

[Balor]

'Effort' as watts on your power meter or 'perceived effort' when cruising or doing intervals?

 

[Balor]

I’m going to go with the good old saying of “just because you can do it doesn’t mean it can’t be done”.

I'm not sure if it was a typo on your part, but that's certainly true as well . (As in - if you can do it, it does not mean that it is not impossible for someone else).

 

[ed72]

There's actual science out there on this question.

 

[Balor]

There's actual science out there on this question.

Unfortunately, by no means a complete answer can be found anywhere on how to predict how *you* will be affected and when (and how... if ever) you'll completely adapt.

 

[DavidCH]

With a DF you are more inclined to get off the seat and put on the power just to keep the circulation going. That seems to push my heart rate up ... especially if my highest sprocket is a 25t and I've got to get up a 10% gradient.

The other thing that keeps my heart rate down on the V is the circulation of air. I don't get so hot unless my exersion level becomes higher than the DF ride ... usually down to the excessive levels of adrenalin.

My heart rate in winter is less than in summer. I have to drink more in the summer so hydration is in the equation too.

If you want to stay with your friends just ride in the smaller chainring.

 

[ed72]

Unfortunately, by no means a complete answer can be found anywhere on how to predict how *you* will be affected and when (and how... if ever) you'll completely adapt.

Medicine is like that, too. Responses vary.

Statistical Outliars or N = 1 results always exist.

How many reports of actual data exist showing more power is made on a reclined bent vs an upright? Jason is the only credible source that I have read and I have searched and searched. Seeing his actual power files showing equivalence actually has given me motivation.

How many serious upright riders jumped onto a bent and created more power? Do they even make as much power after developing "bent legs"? I haven't seen it generally.

Pulmonary function is impaired depending upon position. There is plenty of science on that. I have never ever seen a study or a single instance. Supine or prone loses to upright all the time. There are also optimum hip angles for max power.

The actual more important matter is whether time to distance and comfort is improved on a bent compared to an upright. After 6-12 months of adaptation, it would take a pretty hilly route to be slower than on an upright in my opinion. On a flat or rolling route, the bent wins hands down (of course). I have many personal bests on climbs on a bent compared to my upright but on extended, unrelenting climbs over about 8%......I am still faster on an upright. In reality, there are not a lot of extended 10% climbs out there on modern designed roads. So, it is rather moot for me in practice aside from the fact I cannot ride an upright anymore.

 

[BikeGary]

My fastest time on my commute is still on my DF, that's both uphill to work, and downhill home. I attribute it to several factors. I am more comfortable on my DF, so I'm more likely to push it in the corners. I'm way faster off the blocks on my DF from a standing start. So all the lights that I hit, add seconds to my time on my Cruzbike. I'd be faster downhill but I am not comfortable enough at speed (25+ mph) to stay in the bike lane on my S30 laying out flat, so I tend to sit up so I can see better which negates the areo effect of the bike. I'd ride in the lane but the speed limit is 50, and even at 35mph, cars overtake me way to fast for them to adjust. I am slower climbing on the S30. I'm nearly at par but not quite on the smaller hills, but on the big hills, it's slower. I attribute this to my lack of conditioning of the muscles used when laying flat. I am better than when I first rode this route, but it's not quite on par.

So why keep riding the S30? My shoulders and wrists no longer are getting jammed by the handlebars. Yes I occasionally ride the DF, but when I switch back, I'm slower on it until I re condition my body to the different position. (and then I also ache....)

As for my heartbeat... I don't have that hooked up yet. Maybe later 2019 and then I'll see. I doubt it's much different, because if I feel like the ride is too easy, I just push harder.

Anyway here's the profile for my commute via Stava. The sum altitude gain is approx 1400ft going right to left (home to work) and 1000ft going the other way.
You'd think that going home it would be a lot faster on the S30, but the traffic lights negate the wins from going downhill faster.

 

[Rick Moore]

'Effort' as watts on your power meter or 'perceived effort' when cruising or doing intervals?

Basically it’s perceived effort. I don’t ride with a power meter at this time, but I am able to gauge my perceived effort fairly accurately. So what I’m saying is when I put out the same perceived effort on the Cruzbike as on the DF, my heart rate is 5-10 beats lower.

 

[Balor]

Basically it’s perceived effort. I don’t ride with a power meter at this time, but I am able to gauge my perceived effort fairly accurately. So what I’m saying is when I put out the same perceived effort on the Cruzbike as on the DF, my heart rate is 5-10 beats lower.

Yea. And power is lower as well, I bet. I did experiments going by 'perceived power' and varying seat recline/BB height in other thread (here is summary, actual data on previous pages).

The sad truth 'why *most* bents cannot climb' is a long combination of factors that add up (sometimes to obscene amount, like me basically being 2x slower during my first year of 'recumbentdom').

Not everyone is THAT much affected, and some (sometimes complete) adaptation is possible, but the higher bb/lower recline you get, the more power it will likely cost you, and aerodynamics is not always there to help you, and besides, unlike velomobiles/streamliners, most bents are not *that* much more aerodynamic than modern aero road bikes, and best unstreamlined TT bikes are about equal to best unstreamlined bents with exception of lowracers, perhaps.

More than that, sometimes quest for best performance with high BB costs you more than power and speed - but comfort as well. My only 400k brevet on a bent was, frankly, torturous with very numb feet and recumbutt galore (seat woes are not limited to DFs) that lasted for 27 hours and was much harder mentally than 600k brevet on DF.

My advice - try learning (and make sure you have a power meter to back up your feelings) handlebar waggling technique. Since your arms should be better perfused than your legs, (while I'm not sure at all you can add much power this way) it might be totally worth it, if you don't have a full set of bent legs yet. Lowering BB might help as well, but it will cost you aero.
Hard interval training worked for Ed, and I presume that going midfoot (minimising passive oxygen consumption/lactic acid generation by your calves) + oval rings should help because they improve economy.

I also suspect that hard bar pulling might work for hard efforts as well - not because it generates work (it does not), but because being isometric effort it considerably rises your blood pressure, which might compensate drop in blood pressure in your legs due to recumbent position.