Helmet field testing? CdA impact

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
The extent of improvement depends on the fabric design, fit, wrinkles. Skin is too smooth for surfaces directly opposed to the wind like biceps, shoulders, etc

One of my skinsuit has smooth fabric up to the elbow and then rough ridges or perhaps one could call them trip layers from there to the shoulder. it really is not optimal for a bent position for several reasons....anyway. We try to minimize the wake behind us. If you get onto the wheel of a velomobile for instance, there ain't nothing coming off. It is not just the shape but the motion within the detached airstream that causes increase drag. The idea is airflow has more disruption and the votex at the back is nastier for skin vs fabric.

http://www.ero-sports.com/2017/index.php/ero-insight-blog/15-why-skin-is-slow

Now that is interesting. This reminds me of an article I read years ago explaining why the rough skin of sharks makes them faster in the water. It also suggests that rougher surfaces on bents would make them more aero, no?

I've been thinking of having the M1 painted matte black, like the M5. My theory is that the surface would heat up a lot more in the sun, creating a boundary layer of hot air which would produce less drag than denser cool air. What do you think? o_O
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
I think black should be faster. I recall a study showing black helmets are faster than white ones or something silly like that.

I have not seen any studies on frame roughness WRT coefficient of drag but I suppose it make sense at high enough speed. Think how slow a shaved tennis ball is compared to a fuzzy one or old worn dimples on a golf ball. That is the idea with dimples on Zipp wheels but many feel that is just slick marketing.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I think black should be faster. I recall a study showing black helmets are faster than white ones or something silly like that.

I have not seen any studies on frame roughness WRT coefficient of drag but I suppose it make sense at high enough speed. Think how slow a shaved tennis ball is compared to a fuzzy one or old worn dimples on a golf ball. That is the idea with dimples on Zipp wheels but many feel that is just slick marketing.

I recall reading an article in Scientific American back the early 80's according to which researchers had discovered that airplane surfaces inscribed with microscopic grooves, like the surface of a record, made them more aero than the traditional method of polishing them to a mirror finish. The trick was that the groves had to be oriented in a particular way, and the spacing between them had to be just right: too wide or too narrow, and it didn't work. IIRC, this research was based on the discovery regarding shark skin.

So it appears that what we need to do is cut tiny grooves into the exterior surfaces of our bents. It may take a while, but if it saves a few watts...
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Hit three of my season goals today. Cracked 20 minutes on 10 miles, it took 306 watts average (conditions were not optimal) and I also beat my PB on my training hill. I still not the greatest climber but 60 years old on a bent against youngsters on uprights #, so, 58 out of 576 on Strava isn't too bad (not the most commonly used hill around but I like it). I was trying to break 7:30 for the climb and did 7:25. I could not break 13 minutes for my first 6 months and struggled to just get up it.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
Hit three of my season goals today. Cracked 20 minutes on 10 miles, it took 306 watts average (conditions were not optimal) and I also beat my PB on my training hill. I still not the greatest climber but 60 years old on a bent against youngsters on uprights #, so, 58 out of 576 on Strava isn't too bad (not the most commonly used hill around but I like it). I was trying to break 7:30 for the climb and did 7:25. I could not break 13 minutes for my first 6 months and struggled to just get up it.

Congratulations on your 10 mile TT; that's a result I can only dream of, even on my M1. I've discovered that there are a few seriously fast riders in these parts who happen to be in my age group, so it's far from certain that even if I filter by age, I'll always find my name at the top of the leader board.

Have you seen Larry's recent Youtube uploads? There's one where he's circling the track on his new "Magic" recumbent. I found it of great interest because this is the first of his videos I've seen in which his speed/power outputs roughly match my own (on the M1). Unfortunately after lapping everyone else four times (!), he crashed in strong cross winds, just as he did on his Arrowhead:

 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
I did watch the video and did not know what to say. I have watched a lot of his videos. Riders that don't push the envelop don't crash. I have crashed enough times on a bent that I can empathize with his moaning on the ground. I crashed real hard in Borrego Springs making a left onto a road that narrowed just as I went into the sun, I couldn't see as I went off the road into soft sand (desert) ripping off my entire left elbow, the blood was very impressive. I should have realized the sun was coming up. Stupid me. It made for a hard race. So, I don't understand what happened to Larry and why he crashed. Balor probably knows why but he doesn't like us anymore.

I am totally amazed at his heart rate, it was 146 or 150 BPM standing on the starting line in France. Getting it over 180 bpm at his age is freakin awesome.

Golden Cheetah calculates 314 watts at 150 bpm for me, I was mostly in the 146-148 at 300-310 watts during my 10 mile ride. I'm just a smelly diesel in a Ferrari world.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
I've discovered that there are a few seriously fast riders in these parts who happen to be in my age group,

BTW...thank you.

There are three in my area that are off the charts fast. The mean spirited get off my lawn character might think they are running a motor. One guy goes by "ass cancer", one goes by "your mother's lover" and something about diesel geezer or something. They are fast on the flats and climb like nobody's business. I did remove 10 pounds of tools, clothing, tires, etc. from the bike today which helped on the climb. I forgot to take the bell, mirror, and spare battery off the bike. I also forget to put the 23mm tire onto the front wheel, it makes a big difference at 30+ mph. Maybe next time.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I did watch the video and did not know what to say. I have watched a lot of his videos. Riders that don't push the envelop don't crash. I have crashed enough times on a bent that I can empathize with his moaning on the ground. I crashed real hard in Borrego Springs making a left onto a road that narrowed just as I went into the sun, I couldn't see as I went off the road into soft sand (desert) ripping off my entire left elbow, the blood was very impressive. I should have realized the sun was coming up. Stupid me. It made for a hard race. So, I don't understand what happened to Larry and why he crashed. Balor probably knows why but he doesn't like us anymore.

According to the comments in the shorter version of that video, he crashed due to hard crosswinds, which was the same thing that took him down on his Arrowhead. I've gone down twice on the M1 at ~ 30 mph. Strangely I didn't even feel the pain until I stopped sliding. Losing some skin and blood wasn't the worst thing; shredding my favorite pair of riding shorts was. I've never been able to find another pair that fit me so perfectly.

I am totally amazed at his heart rate, it was 146 or 150 BPM standing on the starting line in France. Getting it over 180 bpm at his age is freakin awesome.

Golden Cheetah calculates 314 watts at 150 bpm for me, I was mostly in the 146-148 at 300-310 watts during my 10 mile ride.

I don't even want to know what mine is currently. The last time I had it near 200 bpm was on a treadmill when I was still in my 20's. Even now my resting heart rate is around 60 bpm; all the years of cycling haven't improved it one bit. Some other riders in my age group can get theirs down in to the 40's.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
BTW...thank you.

There are three in my area that are off the charts fast. The mean spirited get off my lawn character might think they are running a motor. One guy goes by "ass cancer", one goes by "your mother's lover" and something about diesel geezer or something. They are fast on the flats and climb like nobody's business. I did remove 10 pounds of tools, clothing, tires, etc. from the bike today which helped on the climb. I forgot to take the bell, mirror, and spare battery off the bike. I also forget to put the 23mm tire onto the front wheel, it makes a big difference at 30+ mph. Maybe next time.

The best climbers I know are all young guys, probably because they weigh next to nothing. There's one crit racer my age who lives in Titusville and goes by the name "Old One Leg" on Strava. His sustained speeds are hard to believe, but a mutual acquaintance assures me that he really is that fast. Ted Hollander is probably the oldest "fast guy" in my area. He graduated from college when I was still in junior high, and he's still racing!
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Even now my resting heart rate is around 60 bpm; all the years of cycling haven't improved it one bit. Some other riders in my age group can get theirs down in to the 40's.

That isn't such a bad thing. When you have a 41 HR, they think you have a problem and spend $15,000 testing you and eventually refer you and refer you and refer you until you climb the top and man behind the curtain tells you there is nothing wrong with you. With 60 bpm, they leave you alone. I have been taken thru the medical industry ringer for 3 months, a top Electrophysiologist (the electrician in the Cardiologist world) told me he total respect for someone my age in such remarkable condition.

Can I have a refund?

According to the comments in the shorter version of that video, he crashed due to hard crosswinds, which was the same thing that took him down on his Arrowhead.

It had to be a little windy looking at the power levels at different parts, the wind was sweeping across his right as he turned left. There are some situations like that with trucks passing that pull me 3-4 feet if at speed. The viscoset helps some. Some of the riders were all over the place. The fellow in the white bike and white disc was the steady eddie for sure, he held his line.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
So this weekend I basically did nothing but speed testing. I did every kind of speed testing I could think of, in fact.

On Friday I took my Roubaix out to my favorite test trail and did several four mile runs, comparing the effects of arm sleeves and my Eolus track helmet to no sleeves and my regular Specialized road helmet. At the speed I can currently hold for long periods ~22 mph, the difference was negligible. In comparing the power/speed data from various runs, I couldn't see the slightest benefit from arm sleeves and the super aero Eolus helmet. In a couple of runs, the speeds were identical and the power output differed by only 1 watt. Drag increases in proportion to the square of the volocity however, so physics dictates that at much higher speeds than I and vast majority of weekend riders can maintain, the benefits of making myself more aero would have to produce clear, measurable results, but I saw no practical benefit in conducting these sorts of tests at speeds that I can't maintain for any significant time.

On Saturday I went on a group ride, and discovered the one scenario in which my new Garmin video camera becomes a valuable tool for scientific testing. In fact, I can't think of any other way to conduct these types of tests that would produce results nearly as good. What I wanted to see was the effects of drafting, and for this, watching a video while the power/speed data is displayed in real time right on the screen is ideal. So with me in the lead, my average speed of 21-22 mph required ~200 watts, just as I'd noticed on many solo rides. With one rider in front of me, the same speed could be maintained with about 30 watts less power. With two or more riders ahead of me, the same speed could be maintained with 60-70 watts less. There is one section of the video where I deliberately changed my position relative to the lead rider to see if one position proved markedly better at saving watts; I couldn't find one.

Interestingly enough, I've done this sort of test before while riding my M5 recumbent, and noticed that in those cases the benefits of drafting someone on an upright were far greater. There have been times when I rode behind another rider at 21 mph, and noticed that I only had to put out 80 watts to match his speed. Unfortunately upright riders see little if any benefit from drafting a recumbent, so as a courtesy to the rest of the group, I try to stay out of the paceline whenever possible.

Today I took my Specialized Venge out to my favorite test trail and repeated the tests I'd conducted there on Friday with the Roubaix. I fully expected to see very different results. The Venge is clearly much more aero than the Roubaix, starting by placing the rider in a much more aggressive seating position, making the most of it's aero frame technology, and being equipped with a set of deep dish aero wheels. But once again, the test results were so close that nothing definitive could be concluded from them. The Venge did perform slightly better than the Roubaix on my four mile segment, but the difference was so small that just a tiny tailwind could account for it. In the end, the results were both amazing and disappointing. What it suggests is that for the average club rider, spending loads of money to make the bike more aerodynamically efficient is just pointless. I suspect that's because on an upright, the rider accounts for about 80% of the drag, so trying to squeeze significantly more speed out of the thing that's only responsible for 20% of the drag just isn't realistic. At least not at the speeds most riders are capable of.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
WRT to drafting a recumbent, some benefit but not much. I had a fellow randonneur drafting me the whole Van Fleet trail. He was experimenting to see how much drafting effect he gained. I was doing about 22mph and he said he needed 20-30 watts more power going off my wheel and also said the sweet spot area was smaller.

I couldn't see the slightest benefit from arm sleeves and the super aero Eolus helmet. In a couple of runs, the speeds were identical and the power output differed by only 1 watt. Drag increases in proportion to the square of the volocity however, so physics dictates that at much higher speeds than I and vast majority of weekend riders can maintain, the benefits of making myself more aero would have to produce clear, measurable results, but I saw no practical benefit in conducting these sorts of tests at speeds that I can't maintain for any significant time.

Cube not square. Increasing speed by 10% require 1.1 to the third more in power or about 33% more power when into the higher speeds (say over 25 mph where linear effects are relatively small....)

The effect of sleeves vs. no sleeves is not easy to measure at slow speeds.

At 22 mph on an upright in a good position at the front of a pack, you might need 210 watts without sleeves. Put sleeves on and you might go 22.1 mph (CdA reduction of 0.005 for instance might a good number for improvemet). You might not gain anything or at least measurable at that speed. A watt or two. Very difficult to measure. Also not a big deal at slow speed.

Reducing CdA by 0.005 on a bent from say 0.163 to 0.158 at 30 mph would require either 8 watts less for the same 30 mph or around 0.25 mph more speed at the same power. 0.005 m^2 is measurable with extreme care on a windless day using the Chung protocol but it is not easy. At 33 mph, it would be 10 watts savings. To do a sub 20 minute 10 mile TT, 32-33 mph is about what I need to do the flats at. 10 watts is hard to increase in power output. So, I search for little bits here and there
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
WRT to drafting a recumbent, some benefit but not much. I had a fellow randonneur drafting me the whole Van Fleet trail. He was experimenting to see how much drafting effect he gained. I was doing about 22mph and he said he needed 20-30 watts more power going off my wheel and also said the sweet spot area was smaller.

I've had people say to me, "It feels like you're not even there." One racer on the UCF team told me that he did feel a slight benefit from riding behind me on my M5, but only if he lowered his chest to almost handlebar level. This was at a speed of about 24 mph. By contrast, when I got behind him at 27 mph, it felt like I hardly needed to pedal. It would be interesting to see what there is to be gained from drafting another recumbent.

At 22 mph on an upright in a good position at the front of a pack, you might need 210 watts without sleeves. Put sleeves on and you might go 22.1 mph (CdA reduction of 0.005 for instance might a good number for improvemet). You might not gain anything or at least measurable at that speed. A watt or two. Very difficult to measure. Also not a big deal at slow speed.

I saw no difference at all, even with the added benefit of wearing the more aero Eolus helmet. But these tests are not very good ones, because I can't maintain a perfectly even speed/power for the minimum 1 mile distance I prefer. A coast down test would be so much better, but I can't find the right slope to do it on. At some point I think we're just going to have to build our own wind tunnel.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
I should have added, the wind was off my right at 1-2 o'clock and he was drafting at 7 o'clock.

Even the front rider gains an advantage in a multi rider paceline, provided those following aren't wandering all over the place.

I think I just realized why it took me over 300 watts to meet my 10 mile TT goal rather than the calculated wattage of 286 aside from less than optimal conditions. I had put a 25 mm tire onto the front wheel that is designed for a 23 mm tire. I did it because a brevet had rough roads. The transition from tire to rim is very poor with the 25 mm. Hambini measured 18 watts more power needed at 30 mph using Shimano wheel (also narrow rim) when going from 23 mm to 25 mm.

https://www.hambini.com/blog/post/bicycle-wheel-aerodynamics-which-one-is-fastest/
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I should have added, the wind was off my right at 1-2 o'clock and he was drafting at 7 o'clock.

Even the front rider gains an advantage in a multi rider paceline, provided those following aren't wandering all over the place.

I think I just realized why it took me over 300 watts to meet my 10 mile TT goal rather than the calculated wattage of 286 aside from less than optimal conditions. I had put a 25 mm tire onto the front wheel that is designed for a 23 mm tire. I did it because a brevet had rough roads. The transition from tire to rim is very poor with the 25 mm. Hambini measured 18 watts more power needed at 30 mph using Shimano wheel (also narrow rim) when going from 23 mm to 25 mm.

https://www.hambini.com/blog/post/bicycle-wheel-aerodynamics-which-one-is-fastest/

Some fascinating information in that article. He makes the point that tires create drag not just because they have to punch a hole in the air, but because they create turbulence by spinning. This makes me wonder how many watts could be saved by sanding off the embossed letters/logos on the sidewalls. o_O
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Here is one of his videos on wheels, the last half he shows some CFD work that is sort of interesting.

Don't laugh but worn tires (flat spot) are much slower than relatively new ones as are round spokes vs bladed.

One of the theories why the Conti GP4000 tested so well aerodynamically was the tread pattern. Who knows.


 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
That video inspired me to give it another go on my Venge, this time fitted with a set of Zipp 808's. If I still don't see a significant speed advantage over the Roubaix, both the Venge and 808's are going on eBay.

IMG_0324-XL.jpg
 
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