How much may I recline my seat without having to install a headrest?
- Thread starter Vargas
- Start date
Charles.Plager
Recumbent Quant
HI I0,
I think it's a
HI I0,
I think it's a personal thing, and I think from your description, the answer is somewhere between 50 and 43 degrees.
1) Don't fear the neck rest.
2) You may find that if you lower your seat bit by bit, your body gets used to it.
Cheers,
Charles
I think it's a
HI I0,
I think it's a personal thing, and I think from your description, the answer is somewhere between 50 and 43 degrees.
1) Don't fear the neck rest.
2) You may find that if you lower your seat bit by bit, your body gets used to it.
Cheers,
Charles
hurri47
Well-Known Member
Definitely agree with
Definitely agree with Charles' point number 2 - I've been there.
I was fortunate that my first lowracer had a lot of adjustment to the seat. I would lower the seat slightly, listen to my neck complain, and put on a temporary home-made headrest. After a week, I could take the headrest back off. I repeated that process until there was no more adjustment left. (I've since added a bike with even lower seat angle.)
Since the Sofrider seat recline is essentially infinitely adjustable (within limits), this kind of program could work for you. Starting from 43 degrees, you can probably dispense with the temporary headrest, but keep in mind that the lower you go, the more you can expect to need fine adjustment to leg extension and hand reach.
With respect to Charles' point number 1, a headrest can be a welcome luxury on a long straight ride, no matter what your recline.
-Dan
Definitely agree with Charles' point number 2 - I've been there.
I was fortunate that my first lowracer had a lot of adjustment to the seat. I would lower the seat slightly, listen to my neck complain, and put on a temporary home-made headrest. After a week, I could take the headrest back off. I repeated that process until there was no more adjustment left. (I've since added a bike with even lower seat angle.)
Since the Sofrider seat recline is essentially infinitely adjustable (within limits), this kind of program could work for you. Starting from 43 degrees, you can probably dispense with the temporary headrest, but keep in mind that the lower you go, the more you can expect to need fine adjustment to leg extension and hand reach.
With respect to Charles' point number 1, a headrest can be a welcome luxury on a long straight ride, no matter what your recline.
-Dan
Personal thing, seat shape and training
I certainly agree with Charles that it is very much a personal thing. I also think that it is affected by both the seat shape and your training.
I currently run a 20 degree seat recline on my high-racer, without a head/neck rest. However, I've found that I can't go lower without one. If I haven't been riding much, I also find that the 20 degree angle is uncomfortable for a while until my neck muscles strengthen up again. Once I'm back riding four days a week, I can easily do 100km without any discomfort.
Some people have reported on BROL that they can run a seat recline of around 18 to 20 degrees on one seat without a head rest, while on another seat at the same angle they need a neck rest. Which suggests that the seat shape is also a factor.
I am astonished that you get neck pain at the recline angles you're running since they are not much different from sitting in a chair. But if you're getting neck pain, a head rest makes sense.
Kind regards...
I certainly agree with Charles that it is very much a personal thing. I also think that it is affected by both the seat shape and your training.
I currently run a 20 degree seat recline on my high-racer, without a head/neck rest. However, I've found that I can't go lower without one. If I haven't been riding much, I also find that the 20 degree angle is uncomfortable for a while until my neck muscles strengthen up again. Once I'm back riding four days a week, I can easily do 100km without any discomfort.
Some people have reported on BROL that they can run a seat recline of around 18 to 20 degrees on one seat without a head rest, while on another seat at the same angle they need a neck rest. Which suggests that the seat shape is also a factor.
I am astonished that you get neck pain at the recline angles you're running since they are not much different from sitting in a chair. But if you're getting neck pain, a head rest makes sense.
Kind regards...
Vargas
Well-Known Member
43 degrees is quite a lot for my old neck...
43 degrees is quite a lot for my old neck...
And indeed it depends a lot on seat shape. I have a friend reclined to 23 degrees without a headrest in a shell like recumbent seat. His seat curves upwards at the shoulders, so actually his torso is at 23 degrees but his shoulders are at a much higher angle (he looses some aerodynamics because of this).
The CB backseat is almost flat when compared to his seat, so although his seat is much more reclined than mine, my shoulders are much more reclined than his, thus in spite of running a bigger angle my neck is suffering much more than his.
Anyway I'll raise the seatback back a few degrees and enjoy my SR!
43 degrees is quite a lot for my old neck...
And indeed it depends a lot on seat shape. I have a friend reclined to 23 degrees without a headrest in a shell like recumbent seat. His seat curves upwards at the shoulders, so actually his torso is at 23 degrees but his shoulders are at a much higher angle (he looses some aerodynamics because of this).
The CB backseat is almost flat when compared to his seat, so although his seat is much more reclined than mine, my shoulders are much more reclined than his, thus in spite of running a bigger angle my neck is suffering much more than his.
Anyway I'll raise the seatback back a few degrees and enjoy my SR!
Charles.Plager
Recumbent Quant
Move the seat back up and
Move the seat back up and then just lower it a little. Ride for a while. Repeat.
It makes a huge difference doing this in smaller steps. Yes, you'll still hit a point where you probably can't get past, but...
Move the seat back up and then just lower it a little. Ride for a while. Repeat.
It makes a huge difference doing this in smaller steps. Yes, you'll still hit a point where you probably can't get past, but...
I was wrong
Hi iO
You've made a very useful and pertinent observation - which has led me to conclude that I was wrong in my comments above. My apologies.
My high-racer carbon seat is of the type you describe above. The seat curves upwards at the shoulders. After my Saturday ride this morning (90km without a head rest), I measured the seat angle in the middle and top of the seat. While the middle of the seat (where my lower torso rests) is at 20 degrees, the angle at the top of the seat (where my shoulders rest) is 52 degrees!!
Now that I'm aware of this, given the shape of the Cruzbike seats I'm not surprised that you have neck pain without a head rest.
I must say, this is an exciting realisation. My current set-up is clearly nowhere near as aero as I thought is was. In fact, not only is the Vendetta clearly more aero than a conventional high-racer with it's seat at 20 degrees recline, but the Silvio is also appears to be more aero as well. No wonder John chose to equip both with head rests.
I'm currently waiting for the 11-speed approved Vendetta to become available. While I'm waiting, I'm doing some 'before' testing of my current high-racer (with the 'after' testing to be done on the Vendetta). The three routes I'd planned are all climbing routes. However, I'm now going to add a 16km time trial into the testing regime as well. It will be interesting to determine how much advantage the aero set-up of the Vendetta provides.
Kind regards....
Hi iO
You've made a very useful and pertinent observation - which has led me to conclude that I was wrong in my comments above. My apologies.
My high-racer carbon seat is of the type you describe above. The seat curves upwards at the shoulders. After my Saturday ride this morning (90km without a head rest), I measured the seat angle in the middle and top of the seat. While the middle of the seat (where my lower torso rests) is at 20 degrees, the angle at the top of the seat (where my shoulders rest) is 52 degrees!!
Now that I'm aware of this, given the shape of the Cruzbike seats I'm not surprised that you have neck pain without a head rest.
I must say, this is an exciting realisation. My current set-up is clearly nowhere near as aero as I thought is was. In fact, not only is the Vendetta clearly more aero than a conventional high-racer with it's seat at 20 degrees recline, but the Silvio is also appears to be more aero as well. No wonder John chose to equip both with head rests.
I'm currently waiting for the 11-speed approved Vendetta to become available. While I'm waiting, I'm doing some 'before' testing of my current high-racer (with the 'after' testing to be done on the Vendetta). The three routes I'd planned are all climbing routes. However, I'm now going to add a 16km time trial into the testing regime as well. It will be interesting to determine how much advantage the aero set-up of the Vendetta provides.
Kind regards....
Vargas
Well-Known Member
Please, no need for apologies!
We are just discussing an interesting subject.
In fact what you said is true. The Silvio and the V are VERY aerodynamic. Just compare Ivan's (hope he doesn't charge copyright) Sivlio with my friend Pedro Zohrer's Zohrer racer:
The S is clearly more aerodynamic than the Z.
You can see Pedro is very comfortable without a headrest, while the Silvio can't be ridden without one.
We are just discussing an interesting subject.
In fact what you said is true. The Silvio and the V are VERY aerodynamic. Just compare Ivan's (hope he doesn't charge copyright) Sivlio with my friend Pedro Zohrer's Zohrer racer:
The S is clearly more aerodynamic than the Z.
You can see Pedro is very comfortable without a headrest, while the Silvio can't be ridden without one.
MrSteve
Zen MBB Master
Head Rests
No one's neck is the same as another person's neck.
Furthermore, as you age, your neck ages along with you... no surprises so far, right?
Most people are either not wrestlers or did not wrestle in their youth: neither did I.
But if you're a wrestler, your neck is pretty strong.
If you have neck problems like ruptured discs, fused bones, arthritic challenges and the like,
then your neck is probably going to be a pain in the neck.
If you ride a motorcycle, then your neck is trained to hold your head up in/against the slipstream.
If so, then your neck is adapted to holding your head up, more than most.
Bottom lines?
You are the best judge of either how much or how little neck support your head needs.
If you have a need for speed, then you must be aerodynamic.
Aerodynamic Cruzbikes have low seat angles.
Adapting to low seat angles, on a Cruzbike, is best done on the adjustable models.
Models like the Quest, the Sofrider and the Sigma.
Unfortunately, these bikes don't come with stock head rests.
If you wish to vary seat angles on the speedier, non-adjustable-seat models like
either the Silvio or the Vendetta, then you pretty much have to make your own foam seat cushions!
Of course, both the Vendetta and the Silvio come with stock headrests.
Speed is fun and speed really ought not to be a pain in the neck!
-Steve
No one's neck is the same as another person's neck.
Furthermore, as you age, your neck ages along with you... no surprises so far, right?
Most people are either not wrestlers or did not wrestle in their youth: neither did I.
But if you're a wrestler, your neck is pretty strong.
If you have neck problems like ruptured discs, fused bones, arthritic challenges and the like,
then your neck is probably going to be a pain in the neck.
If you ride a motorcycle, then your neck is trained to hold your head up in/against the slipstream.
If so, then your neck is adapted to holding your head up, more than most.
Bottom lines?
You are the best judge of either how much or how little neck support your head needs.
If you have a need for speed, then you must be aerodynamic.
Aerodynamic Cruzbikes have low seat angles.
Adapting to low seat angles, on a Cruzbike, is best done on the adjustable models.
Models like the Quest, the Sofrider and the Sigma.
Unfortunately, these bikes don't come with stock head rests.
If you wish to vary seat angles on the speedier, non-adjustable-seat models like
either the Silvio or the Vendetta, then you pretty much have to make your own foam seat cushions!
Of course, both the Vendetta and the Silvio come with stock headrests.
Speed is fun and speed really ought not to be a pain in the neck!
-Steve
Thanks for photos
Hi iO and Eric
Thanks for posting the photo comparison. They make the differences very clear.
iO, my set-up is very close to your friend Pedro. As you say, the Silvio is clearly more aero than his bike.
I think I've been living in a fantasy world. Even though the seat recline I've been running is technically the same as the Vendetta, comparing Eric's photo with your photo of Pedro demonstrates that the Vendetta is waayyyy more aero.
Given all this I'm impressed with how laid back you've been able to get without a headrest.
Are you willing to share why you're not willing to give one a go?
Kind regards.....
Hi iO and Eric
Thanks for posting the photo comparison. They make the differences very clear.
iO, my set-up is very close to your friend Pedro. As you say, the Silvio is clearly more aero than his bike.
I think I've been living in a fantasy world. Even though the seat recline I've been running is technically the same as the Vendetta, comparing Eric's photo with your photo of Pedro demonstrates that the Vendetta is waayyyy more aero.
Given all this I'm impressed with how laid back you've been able to get without a headrest.
Are you willing to share why you're not willing to give one a go?
Kind regards.....
Charles.Plager
Recumbent Quant
Jose, would you mind
For what it's worth, it's not obvious to me either. Not to mention that aerodynamics really just isn't obvious in general ( e.g., adding a good tailbox can do just as much as some fairings which just ain't obvious to me
).
If you really want to know which is more aerodynamic, doing roll down tests is the way to go*.
Cheers,
Charles
* O.k., you have to worry about rolling resistance, but with roll-down tests, you can solve for both if needed...
For what it's worth, it's not obvious to me either. Not to mention that aerodynamics really just isn't obvious in general ( e.g., adding a good tailbox can do just as much as some fairings which just ain't obvious to me
). If you really want to know which is more aerodynamic, doing roll down tests is the way to go*.
Cheers,
Charles
* O.k., you have to worry about rolling resistance, but with roll-down tests, you can solve for both if needed...
MrSteve
Zen MBB Master
The Diff. is in the Seat
Look at the seat back profile from between the shoulder blades to the top of the seat back, at
the nape of the neck.
See how the Zohrer seat has a definite curve in it?
The curved top of the seat allows the neck to sit on top of an almost vertical spine.
See how the same top third of the Silvio/Vendetta seat is almost flat?
The flatter top of the seat has the rider's neck at an angle to the flatter spine.
The cross-section/frontal area presented to the slipstream looks to be
very similar to my eye, in both the Cruzbike and Zohrer seats.
The aerodynamic advange goes to....
Cruzbike!
Why?
Look at the trailing edge, where turbulence is generated.
The flatter-overall Cruzbike seat is gradual;
the abrupt up-tilt of the Zohrer seat is less gradual.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
So there.
Nyaaah!
-Steve
Look at the seat back profile from between the shoulder blades to the top of the seat back, at
the nape of the neck.
See how the Zohrer seat has a definite curve in it?
The curved top of the seat allows the neck to sit on top of an almost vertical spine.
See how the same top third of the Silvio/Vendetta seat is almost flat?
The flatter top of the seat has the rider's neck at an angle to the flatter spine.
The cross-section/frontal area presented to the slipstream looks to be
very similar to my eye, in both the Cruzbike and Zohrer seats.
The aerodynamic advange goes to....
Cruzbike!
Why?
Look at the trailing edge, where turbulence is generated.
The flatter-overall Cruzbike seat is gradual;
the abrupt up-tilt of the Zohrer seat is less gradual.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
So there.
Nyaaah!
-Steve
