I never look back, darling. It distracts from the now, A V20c design journal

[ratz]

Step 1: Get up at 6am and take (5 of 5) for a 7 mile ride up to the Top of the Dam to wear her out.



Step 2: Spend the entire day preparing the build space


Step 3: Accidentally spend all the rest of the free time tuning up the existing fleet of bikes so everyone can ride again tomorrow.

 

[Mathew Fy]

@ratz, I'm enjoying your build diary. I'm interested in how well you do with the brake cable routing. On mine the front brake cable wasn't too hard to slide up, needing a bit of a hockey stick shape to twist the tubing and get it to go through. I helped a friend do his and the experience was much more difficult. I ended up using a mechanical brake cable from the top down and out the bottom, then using it as a guide wire for the hydraulic cable which had an angled cut. I needed to apply constant pressure and rotate (twist) the cable until it finally went past whatever it was hanging up on.
Also, I needed to get longer hydraulic cable. At least you won't need to get adapters.
Shared here:

V20c Frameset - borked fork?

I received my frame set today, and started assembly following along with The fork is giving me trouble. I tried getting my hydraulic brake cable through bottom to top, later just a regular brake cable. I can see it poke around on the derailleur side and could probably get it out with some...

forum.cruzbike.com

 

[ratz]

I might be incredibly covered in spray paint at this point. Many photos were taken this week; now, I need to clean them up and start posting.

 

[Bo6]

This is a great thread!
Thanks for the spreadsheet info on the builds. Currently only 30KM on my Q45 and already need more gears and this thread has some great ideas.

 

[BentAxel004]

Ok, Time for my favorite topic.

When you build a race bike, and I mean a race bike, you build it from the ground up; the Tire you want to run; then the wheels; then the bottom bracket bearing, then the frame, and then the bracket that has the desired bearing that fits your frame; then you do gearing, cranks, handlebars, and last braking controls in that order because the last thing we care about is stopping a road bike.

When you build a bike for an Age Grouper, you do the same because we are heavy and slower with actual lives, and Age Grouper means you still see yourself as a racer...... You know you do; tell me you don't see the bike in front of you, and the lizard brain goes, "Go get'em."

Botton Brackets.....

If you are truly buying a V20c, to go slow, and you won't mash the pedals buy the Cheap T47 internal cup bottom brackets. You can get the ones that come from Rotor with the Cranks above. If you go with the SRAM ones, find the cheap DUB style; stay in the steel bearings in all cases, etc. If you get fixie cranks, get a T47 that is compatible which will probably be a 24mm GXP or side load-compatible Shimano style.

WAIT!!!!!!!! You know what, just don't don't do it. I am not giving you any links to those because I like y'all too much.

You're all rabbit chasers, or heavier than you like hill climbers who still insist on hill climbing, you want the watts from the BB to transfer, and you want your cranks to spin when you blow on them when the chain is off. I'm serious here. Those RAAM team golden bikes from the relay they did just that. To get that, you need a BB that's up to the task, and because we are a moving BB bike, aggressive pedals are just like throwing a DF side to side between your thighs to get powerful bursts, but we do it every ride and far more often just by pedaling out of turns. Because of that, I will always recommend you wait to buy your frame kit until after you have purchased your Sided Loaded Angular Contact Bottom Bracket.....

Your crankset, cool chain, and lovely shifters aren't worth the coin unless the BB is up to pair......

So I contacted a friend of Cruzbike racers, Chris Streeter, at RealWorld Cycling to see what he has. Unfortunately, they are not carrying T47 series products yet. When they do, please support him and his company. They have saved CB riders a ton of time over the years in our quest for speed, and they sponsored parts for the RAMM relay team. Despite not having them in the house, Chris found us a source and saved me all the hunting.

Drumm Roll, please......

Ok, you non-racers, get these:

Angular stainless steel: $149

Shimano 24MM:

BKS-0246 - T47 Internal-Threaded, stainless steel, Angular Contact Bearing Bottom Bracket for 86mm Shell, T47 Framesets and Shimano 24mm Cranksets

BKS-0246 - T47-Internal, Threaded, stainless steel, Angular Contact Bearing Bottom Bracket for 86mm Shell, T47 Framesets and Shimano 24mm Cranksets Angular Contact stainless steel bearings pressed into precision machined aluminum T47 cups that simply thread directly into the BB shell. All Enduro...

cycling.endurobearings.com

SRAM DUB:

BKS-0249 - T47-Internal, Threaded, stainless steel, Angular Contact Bearing Bottom Bracket for 86mm Shell, T47 Framesets and SRAM DUB Cranksets

BKS-0249 - T47-Internal, Threaded, stainless steel, Angular Contact Bearing Bottom Bracket for 86mm Shell, T47 Framesets and SRAM DUB Cranksets Angular Contact stainless steel bearings pressed into precision machined aluminum T47 cups that simply thread directly into the BB shell. All Enduro...

cycling.endurobearings.com

SRAM DUB 29MM:

BKC-0799 - T47-Internal, Threaded, Ceramic Hybrid, XD-15, Angular Contact Bearing, Bottom Bracket for T47 Framesets and SRAM DUB 29mm Cranksets

BKC-0799 - T47-Internal, Threaded, Ceramic Hybrid, XD15, Angular Contact Bearing, Bottom Bracket for T47 Framesets and SRAM DUB 29mm Cranksets. An Enduro Bearings exclusive, our XD15 Pro BBs feature XD15 15 degree Angular Contact cartridge bearings pressed into precision machined aluminum T47...

cycling.endurobearings.com

ROTOR 30MM:

BKS-0241 - T47-Internal, Threaded, stainless steel, Angular Contact Bearing Bottom Bracket for 86mm Shell, T47 Framesets and 30mm Cranksets (spindle length 104mm or longer)

BKS-0241 - T47-Internal, Threaded, stainless steel, Angular Contact Bearing Bottom Bracket for 86mm Shell, T47 Framesets and 30mm Cranksets (spindle length 104mm or longer) Angular Contact stainless steel bearings pressed into precision machined aluminum T47 cups that simply thread directly into...

cycling.endurobearings.com

Randy Racer, you want these:

Ceramic Hybrids: $299

SHIMANO 24MM:

BKS-0246 - T47 Internal-Threaded, stainless steel, Angular Contact Bearing Bottom Bracket for 86mm Shell, T47 Framesets and Shimano 24mm Cranksets

BKS-0246 - T47-Internal, Threaded, stainless steel, Angular Contact Bearing Bottom Bracket for 86mm Shell, T47 Framesets and Shimano 24mm Cranksets Angular Contact stainless steel bearings pressed into precision machined aluminum T47 cups that simply thread directly into the BB shell. All Enduro...

cycling.endurobearings.com

SRAM DUB:

BKS-0249 - T47-Internal, Threaded, stainless steel, Angular Contact Bearing Bottom Bracket for 86mm Shell, T47 Framesets and SRAM DUB Cranksets

BKS-0249 - T47-Internal, Threaded, stainless steel, Angular Contact Bearing Bottom Bracket for 86mm Shell, T47 Framesets and SRAM DUB Cranksets Angular Contact stainless steel bearings pressed into precision machined aluminum T47 cups that simply thread directly into the BB shell. All Enduro...

cycling.endurobearings.com

SRAM DUB 29mm:

BKC-0799 - T47-Internal, Threaded, Ceramic Hybrid, XD-15, Angular Contact Bearing, Bottom Bracket for T47 Framesets and SRAM DUB 29mm Cranksets

BKC-0799 - T47-Internal, Threaded, Ceramic Hybrid, XD15, Angular Contact Bearing, Bottom Bracket for T47 Framesets and SRAM DUB 29mm Cranksets. An Enduro Bearings exclusive, our XD15 Pro BBs feature XD15 15 degree Angular Contact cartridge bearings pressed into precision machined aluminum T47...

cycling.endurobearings.com

ROTOR 30MM: Ceramic Hybrid: $299

BKC-0791- T47-Internal, Threaded, Ceramic Hybrid, XD-15, Angular Contact Bearing, Bottom Bracket for T47 Framesets and BB386 30mm Cranksets

BKC-0791 - T47-Internal, Threaded-Threaded, Ceramic Hybrid, XD15, Angular Contact Bearing, Bottom Bracket for T47 Framesets and BB386 30mm Cranksets. An Enduro Bearings exclusive, our XD15 Pro BBs feature XD15 15 degree Angular Contact cartridge bearings pressed into precision machined aluminum...

cycling.endurobearings.com

That's it for today doesn't pass go; you want these, and it will bug you in the back of your brain every time you ride if you don't have them and you look at your feet. To all of you who already custom-built V20C and don't have these. I'm sorry for telling you late; I didn't mean to be gone so long. Go order your upgrade today.

Yes, I ordered mine Ceramic one for the project today, and yes, I have these on my T50, albeit stainless steel 24mm in that case for Sram gxp.

Are we having fun yet? I live by the 3 Laws.

 

[BentAxel004]

I must have missed something. I ordered an Enduro Bearings' DUB BKS-0249 BB and tried to use a SRAM 2X DUB RIVAL QUARQ Power Meter. It was and still is unclear to me why DUB as a standard as I researched it, is 28.99mm, but the SRAM Crank set is 29mm at the bearing race (close but no cigar). Had to reorder a new Bottom Bracket to fit my 29mm crank set. Anyone else run into the same problem. In addition, does anyone else use anti-seize on the bottom bracket installation?

The reason I ask is someone might fall into the same rabbit hole i occupied. Remember is something can go wrong it will and at the most in- opportune Time!!

 

[Frito Bandito]

Sorry to hear that BentAxel. I remember researching my then current BB on my V20 and being confident, but then going to the LBS to have them double check so I could upgrade to Dura Ace since it was going to be relatively inexpensive.
As for the anti-seizem I use the Locktite titanium anti-seize on my PF30 Litespeed T1. In Japan it is labeled differently, and even though I was sure I would change each BB well before it seized I didn't want to take any chances. Luckily I did because once I bought my V20 I have practically abandoned my T1. Such a shame because it is a gorgeous bike that feels amazing. The whole frame is 3Al titanium except the top tube which is 6Al.

I feel bad for not riding it more ofen, but each time I suit up for a ride and consider it I ask myself "Do you want to go fast and be comfortable or not?"
Here is a high res pic I grabbed online.

 

[JerseyJim]

I'll break it down real simple here. Rotor is our friend...

I came to the same conclusion when considering cranks for my S30 build. The Aldhu system is extremely well thought out and executed. This is good for bike builders and bike shops too because it's easier for them to keep Rotor stock when the parts are interchangeable with multiple configurations. I wish it was easier on the wallet but I guess you can't have everything.

 

[BentAxel004]

After way to many hours trying to find anyone talking about the interference fit of the DUB bottom bracket and crank set spindle I came up with nothing. In addition I did Oerter a bottom bracket from local bike shop. SSDD!
I popped for a digital vernier caliper to try and get more accurate measurements. New bottom bracket and spindle still has interference fit issues. Plan B is cool spindle down with dry ice (-70 degrees C) Hoping spindle will fit / shrink enough to install. LBS tells me to just grease spindle to install. Thank you very much - NOT. Currently waiting for Park tool bb socket wrench to torque before big experiment with dry ice. It seems the only vids on installing bb & spindles uses external bearing configurations. BUT, no one ever hints at interference fit issues during installation. Given that this is a show stopper - I would think some one would at least mention this possible situation and how to handle. My plan is to cool the spindle and hold in vise then slide bb assembly on to bb and using a piece of PVC pipe and mallet try and install.

to recap: V20c: SRAM rival Quarq 2X crankset & generic DUB internal bearing bb. Any ideas of what I am up against or is this natural? Or what am I missing?

 

[ratz]

After way to many hours trying to find anyone talking about the interference fit of the DUB bottom bracket and crank set spindle I came up with nothing. In addition I did Oerter a bottom bracket from local bike shop. SSDD!
I popped for a digital vernier caliper to try and get more accurate measurements. New bottom bracket and spindle still has interference fit issues. Plan B is cool spindle down with dry ice (-70 degrees C) Hoping spindle will fit / shrink enough to install. LBS tells me to just grease spindle to install. Thank you very much - NOT. Currently waiting for Park tool bb socket wrench to torque before big experiment with dry ice. It seems the only vids on installing bb & spindles uses external bearing configurations. BUT, no one ever hints at interference fit issues during installation. Given that this is a show stopper - I would think some one would at least mention this possible situation and how to handle. My plan is to cool the spindle and hold in vise then slide bb assembly on to bb and using a piece of PVC pipe and mallet try and install.

to recap: V20c: SRAM rival Quarq 2X crankset & generic DUB internal bearing bb. Any ideas of what I am up against or is this natural? Or what am I missing?

Sorry about the absence and the late reply. My day job hit some snags. Before malleting anything, I'd email chris@realworldcycling.com with the details of the parts you are trying to use; there's a good chance he'll know what the problem is and what parts would solve it or if it's unsolvable. When possible, I try to source parts from him; sometimes, they don't have them, and when that's the case, he'll point you at a source. DUB is suppose to be easier than GXP the jury is still out on that.

 

[David Saxton]

Hi all,

I had a quick note to add about the centrelock rotor lockrings. Maybe everyone knows this, but just in case:

The "Type II" rotor lockring where you use a BB driver that grips the outside wavy interface is designed for mountain bike front wheels. Modern MTB forks use bigger thru-axles - 15mm or 20mm due to offer more stiffness to the fork lowers - and if you try to use the "Type I" lockrings they don't fit around the hub's endcap.

I imagine there's no cause for using type II lockrings for road bikes / most recumbents since all the hubs are going to be 12mm thru-axle (MTB rear wheel standard) since the stresses on the front hub is assumed to be less severe.

 

[Rishi@Cruzbike]

Plan revision. I exchanged some info with Jim Parker today that made me stop and go back and look at the 10-50 stuff despite it's pricing. I've come around to now agree with Jim that the 44/46 Rings give more options.

So after doing some research, I determine that HELIX has a 9-50T Cassette that is 100% compatible with SRAM's "drivetrain" tech which will become important in the next post. So I'm opting to make the 46 the primary ring and a HELIX 9-50T the bench mark cassette for this project. I'll still be able to test the 10-45T XPLR and some other options. At the least I'll mount the various combination and take them out on the road for sweet spot testing of velocity at cadence.

Here's the updated optimal chart. I'll update the speed graphs this weekend that's tedious to do and time-consuming. If someone else wants to do it to help me out, then run over to Mike shermans gear calculate and do speed graphs for the key rings in this table with the various cassette; using 65-85 as the RPM, good news is you can do two rings in the same graph as in this second image for just this HELIX 9-50T. Note: I noticed just now that I did all the calcs on a 19mm wheel (hello 15 years ago) when I updated and spot check 28/32mm everything got better in our favor; so yeah not updating the documentation to fix that. Not worth the time. In short bigger wheel equal less hill climbing torque; so moving toward 44/46 is even more justified.

View attachment 15288

View attachment 15289

And then a quick note on why HELIX
1. Cheaper than Eagle 329 vs 415
2. 100% compatible with SRAM's new "DriveTrain" Technology
3. The last two cogs can be swapped for different sizes maxing out at 45, 50, and 52T for only $159 which means lower cost to have multiple gearing stacks and a low-cost way to correct a design flaw.
4. Lighter than all the others I saw.

As for the 44T, and 46T you still have Ovality at those sized and the weight up front on the triangle continues to go down which is also a big part of this project.

So the HELIX 9-50T is on order.....

Now I was going to post on the drive train tonight; could be a few days now. So if you want to know what's coming up and why it's so cool for what we are doing go check this excellent explainer out:

@ratz How about the Helix 9-52T!?

FYI: There's a sale on at the moment too.

 

[ratz]

@ratz How about the Helix 9-52T!?

FYI: There's a sale on at the moment too.

We don't have the hills for that (maybe the aero belly, but not the hills; the design will handle that, debugging the derailleur would be tricky but it would eventually work.

 

[Rishi@Cruzbike]

We don't have the hills for that (maybe the aero belly, but not the hills; the design will handle that, debugging the derailleur would be tricky but it would eventually work.

Debugging?
Hills are my weakest. I'm the most tense on hills, so I avoid them. Not a strong bicyclist yet. Maybe 44T chainring and this cassette will let climb southern California hills and then enjoy coming down them!

 

[Karl42]

Hi @ratz,
Which handlebar did you end up using in your build? Sorry if I missed it if this was mentioned.

 

[ratz]

@ratz How about the Helix 9-52T!?

FYI: There's a sale on at the moment too.

The chain line will get a little challenging but it will work

 

[ratz]

Hi @ratz,
Which handlebar did you end up using in your build? Sorry if I missed it if this was mentioned.

The aluminum ritchie venture bars on the spreadsheet I just really like how those place the brifters

 

[Karl42]

The aluminum ritchie venture bars on the spreadsheet I just really like how those place the brifters

Are you sure those are on the spreadsheet (the ones in reply #54)? I checked those several times but didn't see anything about the handlebar.
So I guess you mean the Ritchey WCS Venturemax bars?

 

[ratz]

that sounds right but I can definitely pull the records to be sure
I have like 4 sets I love them

 

[Paul Mez]

THANKS Bob and others for this interesting topic! I'm intrigued (and more than a little intimidated) by the depth of your research and understanding. I have the idea to make my stock 2024 v20 "fancy" as a winter project.....but I'll admit your details make me wonder if I'm being too ambitious taking this on. I fit your All Arounder description pretty well....if you include oversized cyclists (6'5" - 246lbs). Yes I still ride hills!

The choice of the SRAM Eagle shifters surprised me since it appears SRAM position it for MTB. I've not thought about taking the v20 off road. I still have the S40 and Q45 for something like that. If you'll indulge what's likely a dumb? question....the way the Eagle derailleur is mounted with the wheel thru bolt -- does that mean if I flat the back wheel that I'll end up not just taking the wheel off while I'm on the side of the road but also the derailleur?

Anyway - thanks again for sharing your insights. I thought Larry's enthusiasm was over the top....but seeing what you've done, perhaps I'm actually operating below par! All the best...