I pedaled today: Question on foot steering

[Terrarium]

So day 3 of learning to ride. I thought some divine epiphany would intercede to keep me from having to use the script, but that ended in pain and shame. I can pedal now though, in only a straight line. It's clear that applying even, uniform pressure on each side of the pedals is the way to pedal, with minor corrections on the steering wheel. I wait until both feet are on the pedals, even out the pedal pressure before i start pedaling. No death grips.

I've gone the equivalent of maybe 2 new york city block. 2 squirrely city blocks. Clearly, there are fine motor and balance skills that will come with time. My question for the group is the direction i've seen in the script to "steer with your feet". Is THIS something that comes with time as well? and can it only be done when each pedal is vertical?

 

[Frito Bandito]

I do it a little pedal steer while pedaling when trying to access stuff either in my hydration bag, moose pack or tailbag, or when fiddling about with my lense or face covering, but it is only when the coast is clear and plenty of wiggle room on the path. I can't explain it in words when or how I pedal steer while pedaling, I just goes by feel. But I can say that I drop my power significantly and am very ginger with my feet on pedal pressure. I didnt even try to pedal steer consciously for quite a while though until I had supreme confidence in making the V20 go exactly where I wanted it to go. Even now my abnormally high attention level jumps a notch when doing it.

 

[Henri]

I have read that riding handsfree only works while pedaling and for now it actually is like that for me in the V20c. It started by learning to pedal without much hand force needed and then releasing the hands more and more. I can only do straights with medium speed, medium pedaling force and medium pedaling speed, so slightest incline with good surface is optimal to not get too fast by accident . Maybe I will continue by paying attention to pedaling in corners and seeing how little grip I can use.

 

[Terrarium]

I do it a little pedal steer while pedaling when trying to access stuff either in my hydration bag, moose pack or tailbag, or when fiddling about with my lense or face covering, but it is only when the coast is clear and plenty of wiggle room on the path. I can't explain it in words when or how I pedal steer while pedaling, I just goes by feel. But I can say that I drop my power significantly and am very ginger with my feet on pedal pressure. I didnt even try to pedal steer consciously for quite a while though until I had supreme confidence in making the V20 go exactly where I wanted it to go. Even now my abnormally high attention level jumps a notch when doing it.

So tell me then, do you steer with the steering wheel. That's the part i've having trouble getting across. it seems like the handlebars are just for corrections rather than direction.

 

[Robert Holler]

For me, I mainly think of "steering" with my feet, while also not allowing my upper body to be so out of sync with what is happening that the front end wavers. There is a balance of both for sure. Once you become very smooth at the pedal strokes that is when you can actually ride hands free. This takes work and balance - I view it as mainly a fun "trick" and not a real useful-in-real-riding skill - but it does demonstrate the inherent stability that a Cruzbike has as an advantage over things like high racers and other RWD recumbents.

The main thing that seems to happen - and it was certainly my case when I started - was trying to overthink and overdo the "inputs" when in reality many people have a much easier time if they relax and try not to overthink what is going on. I have sat kids on a Cruzbike by asking them this simple thing: "Have you ridden a Big Wheel - the thing you kind of pedal steer with your feet?" and if they say "Yes" I say, "Well this is very similar." and 99% of the time they ride off into the sunset.

The pedal steer will definitely go away with time as you become smoother on the pedal circle just keep up that practice.

Also always check you fit - the amount of leg extension and your arm position/extension in space informs the type of leverage you do/don't have over the front end and that can really impact the stability or the ability to get to that point of relaxed riding.

Here is a good YouTube on some of these

 

[chicorider]

All good advice, but Robert saying, "many people have a much easier time if they relax and try not to overthink what is going on," is probably the best nugget. This is, however, frustratingly paradoxical: it is hard to "relax" when one is new to these bikes, but the moment one does relax, and can stay in that state, that is when everything--feet, hands, pedaling, steering--start to gel together, and the real fun begins.

I could load this post up with a bunch of do's and don'ts, but for me, learning to ride the V was mostly about having faith that with steady repetition my brain would devise the needed wiring to make my body work with this bike, while having the patience to let this repetition play out over however much time it took to get to where it all felt natural. After about 500-600 miles, I wasn't having to think too much about what I was doing. By 1000 miles, I realized that I wasn't thinking about it any more than on a DF bike. It really just all sort of happened, but it began by learning to relax.

Welcome to the tribe!

 

[Frito Bandito]

So tell me then, do you steer with the steering wheel. That's the part i've having trouble getting across. it seems like the handlebars are just for corrections rather than direction.

Like Robert and Chico wrote, riding by feel is is what you'll eventually get to with some miles under your belt. It is similar to what you do on your DF bike now because you have been doing it for ages, but the wiring in your head is going to be different so it is going to feel strange. What you do on your DF is lean your shoulder into 1 side and the bike will respond with a turn that wasn't instigated by turning the front wheel. To do that same kind of turn for me feels more like I am leaning my head to 1 side instead of trying to put my shoulder into it, or planting my butt on the inside (think descending fast in a turn). Some may feel they are dropping the inside shoulder to start the turn. As for actually steering with the front wheel, only in slow speed turns, and I am always sitting up for those.

 

[Terrarium]

All good advice, but Robert saying, "many people have a much easier time if they relax and try not to overthink what is going on," is probably the best nugget. This is, however, frustratingly paradoxical: it is hard to "relax" when one is new to these bikes, but the moment one does relax, and can stay in that state, that is when everything--feet, hands, pedaling, steering--start to gel together, and the real fun begins.

I could load this post up with a bunch of do's and don'ts, but for me, learning to ride the V was mostly about having faith that with steady repetition my brain would devise the needed wiring to make my body work with this bike, while having the patience to let this repetition play out over however much time it took to get to where it all felt natural. After about 500-600 miles, I wasn't having to think too much about what I was doing. By 1000 miles, I realized that I wasn't thinking about it any more than on a DF bike. It really just all sort of happened, but it began by learning to relax.

Welcome to the tribe!

Yea everything you're saying here is right. overthinking it is going to just lead to more frustration. Each pass of the parking lot yields new insights.

 

[Terrarium]

For me, I mainly think of "steering" with my feet, while also not allowing my upper body to be so out of sync with what is happening that the front end wavers. There is a balance of both for sure. Once you become very smooth at the pedal strokes that is when you can actually ride hands free. This takes work and balance - I view it as mainly a fun "trick" and not a real useful-in-real-riding skill - but it does demonstrate the inherent stability that a Cruzbike has as an advantage over things like high racers and other RWD recumbents.

The main thing that seems to happen - and it was certainly my case when I started - was trying to overthink and overdo the "inputs" when in reality many people have a much easier time if they relax and try not to overthink what is going on. I have sat kids on a Cruzbike by asking them this simple thing: "Have you ridden a Big Wheel - the thing you kind of pedal steer with your feet?" and if they say "Yes" I say, "Well this is very similar." and 99% of the time they ride off into the sunset.

The pedal steer will definitely go away with time as you become smoother on the pedal circle just keep up that practice.

Also always check you fit - the amount of leg extension and your arm position/extension in space informs the type of leverage you do/don't have over the front end and that can really impact the stability or the ability to get to that point of relaxed riding.

Here is a good YouTube on some of these

Thanks Robert. Things are going just fine for now. I think my fit is solid. It really seems people's progress is diverse. I'm past the fear of "i'll never get this", because i'm getting it in bounds for sure. My plan though is that i'm not going to leave the parking lot for at least the next month. Got to take this in tho to get repaired, them brake levers are always bottoming out.

 

[Beano]

Are you talking about pedal steer? If so use a lower gear and higher cadence and this will alleviate the problem.

Don't ever look at your feet or the front end of the bike when first doing this as you can have issues. Your head should be up, shoulders relaxed looking down the road at where you are going.

 

[AlexisBV]

Your head should be up, shoulders relaxed looking down the road at where you are going.

To quote one of my favourite comics: "The (motor)bike always follows the look of the pilot"

 

[Tuloose]

Terrarium, it just takes awhile to get the hang of riding a Cruzbike.
Many have thrown in the towel along the way so kudos to you for sticking out the learning curve.
To get back to your original question, no, you do not steer with your feet, at least I never do.
Your upper body is key to controlling the CB. The handlebars are spaced wider than the cranks so you have more leverage at the bars to counteract the pedal force.
In that video Robert sent you he mentions counteracting the pedal force by pushing on the opposing bar end.
I was never able to get this to work for me but Robert has also said that you control the CB by doing little isometric like pulls on the bar.
It works like this: push with your right foot and do a little pull on the right bar end and vice versa - it is more like a stiffening of the forearm than an actual pull.
This works for 90% of the riding I do.
It is only when I'm applying maximum power that I have to up my pull on the bars to counteract the stronger pedaling forces.
I call this maximum power maneuver "yanking and cranking".
A couple weeks of practice rides and you should be ready for the bike paths and streets.
Good luck!

 

[Steve Heywood]

Terrarium, it just takes awhile to get the hang of riding a Cruzbike.
Many have thrown in the towel along the way so kudos to you for sticking out the learning curve.
To get back to your original question, no, you do not steer with your feet, at least I never do.
Your upper body is key to controlling the CB. The handlebars are spaced wider than the cranks so you have more leverage at the bars to counteract the pedal force.
In that video Robert sent you he mentions counteracting the pedal force by pushing on the opposing bar end.
I was never able to get this to work for me but Robert has also said that you control the CB by doing little isometric like pulls on the bar.
It works like this: push with your right foot and do a little pull on the right bar end and vice versa - it is more like a stiffening of the forearm than an actual pull.
This works for 90% of the riding I do.
It is only when I'm applying maximum power that I have to up my pull on the bars to counteract the stronger pedaling forces.
I call this maximum power maneuver "yanking and cranking".
A couple weeks of practice rides and you should be ready for the bike paths and streets.
Good luck!

Thank goodness they do, I'm the proud owner of a V20 that had around 20 miles on it because the first owner thought it was "too dangerous for the road"

It took me a good 1000 miles on the S40 before I felt totally comfortable so I knew I'd be fine on the V20... So good that I currently have two, a pristine version built from the 2019 frame mentioned above that still hasn't been out since I built it and a used (but perfect) model that I'm using when not on the Bacchetta Aero

 

[Terrarium]

Are you talking about pedal steer? If so use a lower gear and higher cadence and this will alleviate the problem.

Don't ever look at your feet or the front end of the bike when first doing this as you can have issues. Your head should be up, shoulders relaxed looking down the road at where you are going.

This is what i been doing wrong, they mention it in the videos i just always thought it didn't apply to me.

 

[Terrarium]

Terrarium, it just takes awhile to get the hang of riding a Cruzbike.
Many have thrown in the towel along the way so kudos to you for sticking out the learning curve.
To get back to your original question, no, you do not steer with your feet, at least I never do.
Your upper body is key to controlling the CB. The handlebars are spaced wider than the cranks so you have more leverage at the bars to counteract the pedal force.
In that video Robert sent you he mentions counteracting the pedal force by pushing on the opposing bar end.
I was never able to get this to work for me but Robert has also said that you control the CB by doing little isometric like pulls on the bar.
It works like this: push with your right foot and do a little pull on the right bar end and vice versa - it is more like a stiffening of the forearm than an actual pull.
This works for 90% of the riding I do.
It is only when I'm applying maximum power that I have to up my pull on the bars to counteract the stronger pedaling forces.
I call this maximum power maneuver "yanking and cranking".
A couple weeks of practice rides and you should be ready for the bike paths and streets.
Good luck!

thanks thanks, it's coming for sure. Can i ask did you ever use MTB shoes without clips just to have something stiff? I don't want to clip in yet but these running shoes aren't cutting it.

 

[chicorider]

thanks thanks, it's coming for sure. Can i ask did you ever use MTB shoes without clips just to have something stiff? I don't want to clip in yet but these running shoes aren't cutting it.

Clipping in is another paradox of learning to ride these bikes: clipping in seems pretty scary ("If I need to put a foot down quickly, I may not be able to if I'm clipped in"), but being clipped in makes these bikes noticeably easier to handle because the feet are connected to the steering and drivetrain in a way that is consistent, reliable, and predictable. Without being clipped in, the feet can move around, or come off the pedals without much warning, creating sudden changes in how the bike tracks and handles. To me, that's the scary part.

Plenty of people stick with flat pedals and say they are fine with that. Cool. But plenty of others have used flat pedals to get through the worst of the learning curve, then switched to clipless pedals when the time was right, and commented on how much easier (and faster) the bike is to ride.

If you do eventually go clipless, I recommend using a double-sided pedal, like Speedplay or Shimano SPD mountain bike pedals. When I started using clipless pedals on my V, I had single-sided Shimano road pedals. Connecting with them was fiddly and awkward. Mountain SPDs? No problem.

 

[Frito Bandito]

+1 on the SPD MTB pedals. On my commuter the Shimano EPDEH500 pedals are flat on 1 side and SPD clipped on the other.


The pedals are weighted such that the pedal spins so the flat side is facing forward when your feet aren't touching them, which means the SPD clips is in the right place to clip in when on your V20.

They are a bit heavy so after getting familiar with clipping in on my V20 I switched to Shimano EPDES600 pedals since I now never need the flat side.

The thing I like about SPD is that the MTB shoes can be worn while walking around without looking like you stepped in something that is now stuck between your toes.

 

[castlerobber]

thanks thanks, it's coming for sure. Can i ask did you ever use MTB shoes without clips just to have something stiff? I don't want to clip in yet but these running shoes aren't cutting it.

I used MTB shoes with pinned MTB platform pedals for months when learning to ride my first Cruzbike.

 

[Tuloose]

thanks thanks, it's coming for sure. Can i ask did you ever use MTB shoes without clips just to have something stiff? I don't want to clip in yet but these running shoes aren't cutting it.

I have large, pinned flat pedals on my T50 and any kind of shoe works okay.
I use SPDs with mt bike shoes on the Silvio and Vendetta.

 

[Terrarium]

@Tuloose @castlerobber @Frito Bandito @chicorider - Thanks ya'll, i'm coming along in leaps and bounds. Going to spend the next month in flat MTB shoes for sure. I don't see anyone on the forum who's used funn mambas. They're double sided 2, flat one side, spd the other. Are there any anecdotes?

I've had a positive experience with clips before, but I don't want to have one other parameter to adjust, that's why i got OFF df. Tell me, for recumbents how do i orient the SPD clip on the shoe? I don't know anything specific about my own pronation.