Initial Conclusions on the Silvio 2.x Cockpit for distance riding
- Thread starter scabinetguy
- Start date
John Tolhurst
Zen MBB Master
Let the chainstay extension
Let the chainstay extension be specified to position the BB.
Let a steering tube extension be used to position the height of the handlebar clamp as dictated by required arm angle and bar choice.
Let the grips onthe bars be flared according to taste. Flared gives more leverage, vertical gives a tighter envelope, both can work ergonomically but I did go a for a flare on the bullhorn bars.
In an ideal world ...
The bullhorn bar package includes brake levers that can be mounted with the clamp near the bar end shifter - however the grip length would be too short then. When set up as designed, just the shifter lever projects out of the hand.
Let the chainstay extension be specified to position the BB.
Let a steering tube extension be used to position the height of the handlebar clamp as dictated by required arm angle and bar choice.
Let the grips onthe bars be flared according to taste. Flared gives more leverage, vertical gives a tighter envelope, both can work ergonomically but I did go a for a flare on the bullhorn bars.
In an ideal world ...
The bullhorn bar package includes brake levers that can be mounted with the clamp near the bar end shifter - however the grip length would be too short then. When set up as designed, just the shifter lever projects out of the hand.
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Yep Eric mostly clarifying
Eric,
Figured that's the number you quote; but was not 100% sure everyone would follow what the number means. Since I said; greater than 460mm was mostly unheard of; I thought i should clarify that's a inside measure where the straight bars just happen to have an equal outside measure which is the one printed on them. Especially since that comment was soon followed up with a reference to 530mm.
Eric,
Figured that's the number you quote; but was not 100% sure everyone would follow what the number means. Since I said; greater than 460mm was mostly unheard of; I thought i should clarify that's a inside measure where the straight bars just happen to have an equal outside measure which is the one printed on them. Especially since that comment was soon followed up with a reference to 530mm.
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
In an ideal world ...
Yep,
In an ideal world ...
Yep, and it's always hard not to feel like we are peeing in the pool. Don't take it that way, just pushing the envelope and adding to the knowledge base; while being happy to have a place to do it.
Let the chainstay extension be specified to position the BB.
Depending on where the Vendetta and Silvio go in the future; a few more size would be cool if you could come up with a sizing methodology. Yeah I know; I wish I could pull a methodology out of thin air too; but it seems that 50, 75, 100, 125, and 150. would really be nice to pick from; unless you have some cool adjustable one in the works.
Seem like height and waist have a lot to do with it. Too bad you cannot trust people not to be dumb. If you could, then you could ship plastic inserts that wouldn't be ride worthy but could be used for cockpit fitting so people could see which size they might like. Problem is someone would surely ride with it and hurt themselves. But perhaps this is an opportunity for bike shops to fill the void...
Let a steering tube extension be used to position the height of the handlebar clamp as dictated by required arm angle and bar choice.
Oh now the big guys will be thinking hard... Obviously you've thought long and hard on this stuff; that thought never occurred to me, but it so obvious for the bigger guys. I for one am curious what Dave finds out for really tall guys. Sooner or later he's going to get impatient and skip sleeping an do his next setup.
Let the grips on the bars be flared according to taste. Flared gives more leverage, vertical gives a tighter envelope, both can work ergonomically but I did go a for a flare on the bullhorn bars.
Now that is a great authoritative statement. And really my whole endeavor really doesn't expect you guys to solve the multitude of fit issues. But if that thought was documented somewhere in the form of "how to pick alternative handlebars" and fleshed out; that is powerful info. You obviously understand the geometry far beyond the rest of us; a technical briefing might be very useful to bike shop setup people and those customers inclined to dig in. After all, MBB still means learning -and- relearning a lot so more knowledge isn't really That probably what's attracting those of us that will dig, push and investigate. If what's known is available in written form then it takes the guess work out of rediscovering what you already know. Forums are great but man the backlog is hard to dig through; if a veteran doesn't point you at the knowledge we are often left to rediscover what is already known. I gather much of this may have been discussed before somewhere here online; hopefully the drop shoulder bars is a new idea; after all need to have some new progress.
The bullhorn bar package includes brake levers that can be mounted with the clamp near the bar end shifter - however the grip length would be too short then. When set up as designed, just the shifter lever projects out of the hand.
That one just continues to confuse me. I believe it is probably true to your design, but I don't comprehend how it is suppose to work; every photo of someone riding bullhorns shows the hand a long way from the brakes; and a brake lever that pushes the casing rather than pulling the wire. All my experience tells me that is a weakly powered brake that has to be reached for. I get why of the design, it's the ergo way. It was blastedly darn hard to work around the wire under the tape issues and the discomfort in my setups. And when it was wrong man was it obvious. I did get around it, but not yet in what I would call a repeatedly stable way, it's only tinker lab grade at this point. I keep bringing it up because it's worthy goal, not to be a pest; and I want to better understand the stock ones; which probably means I'll just buy a pair although it might be cheaper to go visit Eric for a weekend of riding.
Anyhow we'll continue to push and continue to share; it snowed again here today; stupid polar vortex.... As soon as it's warm every one will think I feel off the planet; and really we'll just be riding and riding .. can't wait and I'm sure others are thinking the same thing for different reasons.... someone shut that guy up already.. .
Yep,
In an ideal world ...
Yep, and it's always hard not to feel like we are peeing in the pool. Don't take it that way, just pushing the envelope and adding to the knowledge base; while being happy to have a place to do it.
Let the chainstay extension be specified to position the BB.
Depending on where the Vendetta and Silvio go in the future; a few more size would be cool if you could come up with a sizing methodology. Yeah I know; I wish I could pull a methodology out of thin air too; but it seems that 50, 75, 100, 125, and 150. would really be nice to pick from; unless you have some cool adjustable one in the works.
Let a steering tube extension be used to position the height of the handlebar clamp as dictated by required arm angle and bar choice.
Oh now the big guys will be thinking hard... Obviously you've thought long and hard on this stuff; that thought never occurred to me, but it so obvious for the bigger guys. I for one am curious what Dave finds out for really tall guys. Sooner or later he's going to get impatient and skip sleeping an do his next setup.
Let the grips on the bars be flared according to taste. Flared gives more leverage, vertical gives a tighter envelope, both can work ergonomically but I did go a for a flare on the bullhorn bars.
Now that is a great authoritative statement. And really my whole endeavor really doesn't expect you guys to solve the multitude of fit issues. But if that thought was documented somewhere in the form of "how to pick alternative handlebars" and fleshed out; that is powerful info. You obviously understand the geometry far beyond the rest of us; a technical briefing might be very useful to bike shop setup people and those customers inclined to dig in. After all, MBB still means learning -and- relearning a lot so more knowledge isn't really That probably what's attracting those of us that will dig, push and investigate. If what's known is available in written form then it takes the guess work out of rediscovering what you already know. Forums are great but man the backlog is hard to dig through; if a veteran doesn't point you at the knowledge we are often left to rediscover what is already known. I gather much of this may have been discussed before somewhere here online; hopefully the drop shoulder bars is a new idea; after all need to have some new progress.
The bullhorn bar package includes brake levers that can be mounted with the clamp near the bar end shifter - however the grip length would be too short then. When set up as designed, just the shifter lever projects out of the hand.
That one just continues to confuse me. I believe it is probably true to your design, but I don't comprehend how it is suppose to work; every photo of someone riding bullhorns shows the hand a long way from the brakes; and a brake lever that pushes the casing rather than pulling the wire. All my experience tells me that is a weakly powered brake that has to be reached for. I get why of the design, it's the ergo way. It was blastedly darn hard to work around the wire under the tape issues and the discomfort in my setups. And when it was wrong man was it obvious. I did get around it, but not yet in what I would call a repeatedly stable way, it's only tinker lab grade at this point. I keep bringing it up because it's worthy goal, not to be a pest; and I want to better understand the stock ones; which probably means I'll just buy a pair although it might be cheaper to go visit Eric for a weekend of riding.
Anyhow we'll continue to push and continue to share; it snowed again here today; stupid polar vortex.... As soon as it's warm every one will think I feel off the planet; and really we'll just be riding and riding .. can't wait and I'm sure others are thinking the same thing for different reasons.... someone shut that guy up already.. .
John Tolhurst
Zen MBB Master
every photo of someone riding
every photo of someone riding bullhorns shows the hand a long way from the brakes; and a brake lever that pushes the casing rather than pulling the wire
That is true, and that is the weakness of the design. To fix it, I need to produce a whole new lever. As a frame maker, its okay to think about making components, but you should probably never do it.
It would be possible to make the fork steerer a bit taller, and allow customers seeking the perfect fit to cut it down accordingly. On the other hand, there is such a wide range of customers out there, some would do that, some would shudder if that message was on the sales page.
every photo of someone riding bullhorns shows the hand a long way from the brakes; and a brake lever that pushes the casing rather than pulling the wire
That is true, and that is the weakness of the design. To fix it, I need to produce a whole new lever. As a frame maker, its okay to think about making components, but you should probably never do it.
It would be possible to make the fork steerer a bit taller, and allow customers seeking the perfect fit to cut it down accordingly. On the other hand, there is such a wide range of customers out there, some would do that, some would shudder if that message was on the sales page.
trplay
Zen MBB Master
yes we are saying the same
yes we are saying the same thing in a lot of areas. I don't see my post as a "counterpoint" but more as a companion post . It should be becoming obvious to even the hardcore holdouts that a recumbent fit is more complex than one would think. Your work is very interesting and I look forward to the road testing portion. R &D is expensive even down at the user level. The wise Silvio owner can save a lot of money and headache by understanding their individual body type and applying tweaks that may apply to them but not necessarily the next rider. The perfect fit is very elusive and not universal.
yes we are saying the same thing in a lot of areas. I don't see my post as a "counterpoint" but more as a companion post . It should be becoming obvious to even the hardcore holdouts that a recumbent fit is more complex than one would think. Your work is very interesting and I look forward to the road testing portion. R &D is expensive even down at the user level. The wise Silvio owner can save a lot of money and headache by understanding their individual body type and applying tweaks that may apply to them but not necessarily the next rider. The perfect fit is very elusive and not universal.
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
I gotta cut what?
Yes that cut the fork steam is a scary one. Mrs Ratz's steerer tube was a tad to long and I didn't have an extra 2mm spacer on hand. So at 11pm we got the hack saw out to make it fit per spec. I'm not afraid to cut into anything as you've all seen; but that one gave me a few minutes of pause; as I measure 8 times; then cut once and file file file.
And we do understand you shouldn't be making components; I can certainly confirm that there is currently no stock brake lever that does reverse cable pull, with a return spring, and a 24mm road bar clamp on; at least nothing I could turn up after 2 weeks of searching. Hence all the focus on the bars and ducking the cable issues. Hopefully the road testing will yield good findings that can be applied forward. Santa is going to draft some help on that one.
I had an interesting idea on the extension; I'm going to get those thoughts together and stick them over in the thread on that topic.
Yes that cut the fork steam is a scary one. Mrs Ratz's steerer tube was a tad to long and I didn't have an extra 2mm spacer on hand. So at 11pm we got the hack saw out to make it fit per spec. I'm not afraid to cut into anything as you've all seen; but that one gave me a few minutes of pause; as I measure 8 times; then cut once and file file file.
And we do understand you shouldn't be making components; I can certainly confirm that there is currently no stock brake lever that does reverse cable pull, with a return spring, and a 24mm road bar clamp on; at least nothing I could turn up after 2 weeks of searching. Hence all the focus on the bars and ducking the cable issues. Hopefully the road testing will yield good findings that can be applied forward. Santa is going to draft some help on that one.
I had an interesting idea on the extension; I'm going to get those thoughts together and stick them over in the thread on that topic.
John Tolhurst
Zen MBB Master
I think trimming the steerer
I think trimming the steerer is an accepted practice in road bike fitting, is it not?
I think trimming the steerer is an accepted practice in road bike fitting, is it not?
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Following up...
I've been able to follow up on some minor thoughts from this thread.
Talking with Jim Parker over email; I decided to go on an extensive hunt for an Origin8 Gary Bar in 31.8mm for the Vendetta build.
I got lucky and found some after about 3 days of hunting. They are the newer version (Top bar in the guitar ted productions) photo earlier in the thread. They have a little more flare than that picture makes apparent but not like the first versions. These bars are getting hard to find; but I did see that the Midges are still available in the 31.8mm size and they look like they should work equally well for. I was about order Midges when I found the Gary bar at the last minute. There is also the option to use the newer Gary in 25.4mm and an shim http://problemsolversbike.com/products/handlebar_shims
On the Vendetta these work great; I cut 6cm off the ends; and I do get two hand positions without wrist bend and with a fully extended arm. The drops position is most comfortable and the on the hoods is will definitely work for a relaxing alternative. On the Vendetta I would put these are par with the comfort of the bullhorns I built; and would put them as superior for the ability to pull on the bars to generate power. I find them harder to ride 1-handed with; but that's probably just a learning curve for the differences in leverage. I can see why the Vendetta rides like these if they have them.
So I put them on to the Silvio without the extension; and they still present the wrist bend problem with the boom seeming a bit to high; like the stock bars I just couldn't find an orientation that I liked; the wrist was always bent, but it was closer. I'm pretty sure that if we put a 60mm custom extension in then the boom angle would match the vendetta and the fit would work. They fit me far better than the stock bars and better than the carbon ones I have that are the same as Ivan's.
Very few miles on the Vendetta (won't stop raining) but I'll follow up after I have a some good mileage logged.
This winter I'll consider making a custom extension for the Silvio, no time right now; and my attempts to get someone to machine them in quantities; resulted in a lot of "we can't make the round part" dead ends. Man I can't wait for 3D printers to get mainstream.
I've been able to follow up on some minor thoughts from this thread.
Talking with Jim Parker over email; I decided to go on an extensive hunt for an Origin8 Gary Bar in 31.8mm for the Vendetta build.
I got lucky and found some after about 3 days of hunting. They are the newer version (Top bar in the guitar ted productions) photo earlier in the thread. They have a little more flare than that picture makes apparent but not like the first versions. These bars are getting hard to find; but I did see that the Midges are still available in the 31.8mm size and they look like they should work equally well for. I was about order Midges when I found the Gary bar at the last minute. There is also the option to use the newer Gary in 25.4mm and an shim http://problemsolversbike.com/products/handlebar_shims
On the Vendetta these work great; I cut 6cm off the ends; and I do get two hand positions without wrist bend and with a fully extended arm. The drops position is most comfortable and the on the hoods is will definitely work for a relaxing alternative. On the Vendetta I would put these are par with the comfort of the bullhorns I built; and would put them as superior for the ability to pull on the bars to generate power. I find them harder to ride 1-handed with; but that's probably just a learning curve for the differences in leverage. I can see why the Vendetta rides like these if they have them.
So I put them on to the Silvio without the extension; and they still present the wrist bend problem with the boom seeming a bit to high; like the stock bars I just couldn't find an orientation that I liked; the wrist was always bent, but it was closer. I'm pretty sure that if we put a 60mm custom extension in then the boom angle would match the vendetta and the fit would work. They fit me far better than the stock bars and better than the carbon ones I have that are the same as Ivan's.
Very few miles on the Vendetta (won't stop raining) but I'll follow up after I have a some good mileage logged.
This winter I'll consider making a custom extension for the Silvio, no time right now; and my attempts to get someone to machine them in quantities; resulted in a lot of "we can't make the round part" dead ends. Man I can't wait for 3D printers to get mainstream.
Eric Winn
Zen MBB Master
JT said, That is true, and
JT said, That is true, and that is the weakness of the design. To fix it, I need to produce a whole new lever. As a frame maker, its okay to think about making components, but you should probably never do it.
?It looks like many, if not all, of the MTB 22.2mm OD brake lever clamps would work fine, even partly in the curve, if the bullhorn bar-end stock was sized to 22.2mm OD rather than 24mm OD. About the only thing available for 24mm OD are hooded brifters or similar brake levers. I suppose you then end up with bar end shifters that are sized for 24mm OD rattling around loose inside the 22.2mm bar ends - but I did find at least one 22.5mm to 24mm OD adapter but they probably wouldn't work with John's shifters.
I bought a couple of brake levers where reviewers suggested they might be bigger but so far they were all 22.5mm clamps with no hope of fitting over the 24mm bullhorn ends.
-Eric
JT said, That is true, and that is the weakness of the design. To fix it, I need to produce a whole new lever. As a frame maker, its okay to think about making components, but you should probably never do it.
?It looks like many, if not all, of the MTB 22.2mm OD brake lever clamps would work fine, even partly in the curve, if the bullhorn bar-end stock was sized to 22.2mm OD rather than 24mm OD. About the only thing available for 24mm OD are hooded brifters or similar brake levers. I suppose you then end up with bar end shifters that are sized for 24mm OD rattling around loose inside the 22.2mm bar ends - but I did find at least one 22.5mm to 24mm OD adapter but they probably wouldn't work with John's shifters.
I bought a couple of brake levers where reviewers suggested they might be bigger but so far they were all 22.5mm clamps with no hope of fitting over the 24mm bullhorn ends.
-Eric
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Something with a reduction sleave ?
Ah the fun of hunter for brake levers. What that exact OD on the bullhorns?
My guess is your best bet is to find an MTB lever that includes the reduction sleeve or probably something from the BMX world. This is one that might work for you. If it's not on http://www.diacompe.com.tw it probably doesn't exisit; the copy just about everyone.
To start with have a look at http://www.diacompe.com.tw/product_View.asp?nid=836 the collar was too big for my setup; but with reverse levels that might work. Or maybe something old school like http://www.diacompe.com.tw/product_View.asp?nid=972 that 23.8 bracket should fit on 24mm because of the design.
Warning you'll need about 2 hours if you go hunting thorough their inventory they have that much stuff.
Ah the fun of hunter for brake levers. What that exact OD on the bullhorns?
My guess is your best bet is to find an MTB lever that includes the reduction sleeve or probably something from the BMX world. This is one that might work for you. If it's not on http://www.diacompe.com.tw it probably doesn't exisit; the copy just about everyone.
To start with have a look at http://www.diacompe.com.tw/product_View.asp?nid=836 the collar was too big for my setup; but with reverse levels that might work. Or maybe something old school like http://www.diacompe.com.tw/product_View.asp?nid=972 that 23.8 bracket should fit on 24mm because of the design.
Warning you'll need about 2 hours if you go hunting thorough their inventory they have that much stuff.
