ITT on my V20 vs my DF

V

vosadrian

Guru
Hi All,

I have an interesting comparison. Lately I have been riding with a group that does regular ITT (Individual Time Trial) sessions at a local closed path. We do 4 laps of a 3km loop in a park. The loop is far from flat with a punchy climb where you gain 20m elevation over around 3-400m peaking at around 7-9% gradient. Of course you get the downhill after that to lose that elevation, but I would say the course is not well suited to a V20 as I typically get down to around 20kph at the peak gradient of the climb.

I am riding OK at the moment, but doing more riding on my DF then my V20... so I suspect my bent legs are not at 100%. Overall I am probably around 90% of peak fitness on the DF.

On my DF a couple weeks back: https://www.strava.com/activities/8594647519#3062841978788750212

The time is actually worse than actual as it triggered the segment before I started. Actual time was around 19:30 at about 38kph and average power of 274W. This was in really good conditions (hot and dry), and most of the guys I ride with got PRs on this day.

Today on my V20: https://www.strava.com/activities/8683021038#3068665771692580788

Time was around 17:30 (2 minutes faster) at about 43kph and average power of 254W. I was actually pleasantly surprised I was able to put out this much power on the V20, as I have not ridden it much lately and I am normally around 15% down on my DF power, but this was only around 10% down. Also, everybody else that rode last time was around 30 seconds slower than the previous time as it was much cooler and more humid (so on the DF today I would have been closer to 20:00). I estimate I would have been another 20-30 seconds quicker on the V20 in the previous conditions.

I was expecting to be around a minute faster than my DF on this course due to the hilly nature of the course and my fear of lack of bent legs, but I exceeded expectations to be over 2 minutes faster. The other guys were blown away with how quick it was. I typically overtook people on the faster parts of the course, and I was flying past them at >10kph faster. The first time on the DF I was down about 20 seconds on the winner that day. This time I beat the next best by 2.5 minutes!!

Anyway I thought the info might be interesting for comparison of DF vs V20. Unfortuantely the conditions were not the same... I suspect if they were the V20 would have faired even better!

Cheers!
 
H

Henri

scatter brain
Interesting, indeed! Thanks for sharing.
vosadrian said:
I am riding OK at the moment, but doing more riding on my DF then my V20... so I suspect my bent legs are not at 100%. Overall I am probably around 90% of peak fitness on the DF.
Click to expand...
I guess, you are riding upright bikes for many years and recumbents/MBB for a few years at best? Would you say, other than your estimation on compared fitness, there are differences in handling skill and such? (Does the cource need skills at all?)
 
Frito Bandito

Frito Bandito

Zen MBB Master
Nice going Vosadrian! It looks like the work you have been putting into the DF has benefitted your V20 performance. Comparing the V20 to a DF is quite fun, and confirms just how much faster it really is. I have been titling my V20 rides with the power, CdA and average speed recently for quick references so I can compare them with my DF ability. Now if I can just get on my DF to complete the comparison. Maybe I'll just have to pull up old DF rides.
 
V

vosadrian

Guru
Henri said:
Interesting, indeed! Thanks for sharing.

I guess, you are riding upright bikes for many years and recumbents/MBB for a few years at best? Would you say, other than your estimation on compared fitness, there are differences in handling skill and such? (Does the cource need skills at all?)
Click to expand...

The course is not that technical. On both bikes I can pedal the entire course without having to stop pedaling for corners or anything. I don't think handling is a consideration in the differences. I have been riding DF for many years, and my bike handling is pretty good. I have been riding V20 for 2 years. I don't think I could improve my handling of it much more than I have already. I cannot do the the same things I can do on a DF on it handling wise, but it would have to be pretty technical to slow me up in comparison. The main difference on the DF is that I can move the bike undeneath me which enables me to do some reactive manouvres very quickly (like bunny hop a pot hole, or dodge an unexpected object). On the V20, I can't really do that, so I have to plan ahead and commit to what I am going to do.
 
V

vosadrian

Guru
@Frito Bandito, I was pleasantly surprised by my power numbers on the V20. Lately I have been riding it once a week and not really pushing high powers on it. I was kind of using it for my recovery ride to bank some easy kms (fast roads on the V20 can do lots of kms without much effort). In comparison, I have been pushing much harder on the DF when riding with this group. Also, I have been getting back into windsurfing, which is more of a strength workout, and strangely I think that is helping my cycling??? I also do some swimming and walking. Anyway, I did this effort expecting to struggle to put out over 200W (which still would have beaten my DF time!!), but I did much better than expected. So perhaps just doing enough to keep the bent legs awake, and keeping the aerobic fitness up with other activities really works!! Unfortunately for me, the hills around me mean I do not enjoy riding the V20 as much as the DF. I go on flatter routes with the V20 for this reason, but I enjoy riding through the bush around me which is hilly so I use the DF for that. Also, whe riding with other DF riders, the V20 is more difficult. I have to leave more space and hang off the back of the bunch, which is not as social.

@DavidCH, that is so true!! The guys in the group were asking how I ended up on the recumbent and I explained about my back issues (which are better than they were when I got the V20). The V20 is much easier to go long on for me. At the moment I can do 1.5-2 hours on the DF before back pain becomes unbearable. That is not an issue on the V20, and the only thing that limits me is my legs (which are probably not great in endurance currently since I never do rides over 2 hours). I have a work Strava challenge coming soon where the aim ir high kms.... so I will test the endurance then. Might aim for a 200km ride but will keep power really low (like 100W!!).
 
chicorider

chicorider

Zen MBB Master
An interesting comparison that I think confirms my purely anecdotal experience of moving back and forth between the two platforms.

I'm starting my eighth year riding a V20, and I put most of my annual miles on that bike. But I started riding gravel a few years ago too. It didn't take me long to realize that if I had a gravel event of, say, 60 to 70 miles (100-ish km), and I had put plenty of hard miles in beforehand, but solely on the V20, I would suffer on the gravel bike. But if I spent the week-and-a-half before the gravel event on the gravel bike, putting in DF miles, I would be fine during the event.

What has surprised me, though, is that after the gravel event, when I get back on the V (because it's the bike I enjoy riding the most), I feel strong, and I come in with slightly higher average speeds, faster times, and a few PRs. It seems that, at least for my body, V20 training doesn't carry over to DF riding super well, but DF riding slightly enhances my performance on the V.

Perhaps you are having a similar experience with your faster than expected TT laps on the V, after putting in quality time on the DF.
 
V

vosadrian

Guru
I think you are onto something @chicorider . I feel the DF requires more muscle recruitment across the entire body. Particularly in the core when doing long rides. If you have not got the strength/endurance in the core, you will suffer on a long ride even if the legs are OK. On the V20, I feel that your whole upper body is supported, so you mainly use your legs (and some arms), but even the legs part is more limited than DF (as you are mostly riding in a single position that uses certain muscle groups. Because of my back issues on the DF, I move around a lot... sitting/standing, moving around on the saddle to change mucles groups. I'm sure I get most of the muscles for bent riding when riding the DF, but not so sure the same applies the other way.

Of course if you only ride a bent, there is no need for the DF muscles to be trained!
 
Frito Bandito

Frito Bandito

Zen MBB Master
vosadrian said:
@Frito Bandito, I was pleasantly surprised by my power numbers on the V20. Lately I have been riding it once a week and not really pushing high powers on it. I was kind of using it for my recovery ride to bank some easy kms (fast roads on the V20 can do lots of kms without much effort). In comparison, I have been pushing much harder on the DF when riding with this group. Also, I have been getting back into windsurfing, which is more of a strength workout, and strangely I think that is helping my cycling??? I also do some swimming and walking. Anyway, I did this effort expecting to struggle to put out over 200W (which still would have beaten my DF time!!), but I did much better than expected. So perhaps just doing enough to keep the bent legs awake, and keeping the aerobic fitness up with other activities really works!! Unfortunately for me, the hills around me mean I do not enjoy riding the V20 as much as the DF. I go on flatter routes with the V20 for this reason, but I enjoy riding through the bush around me which is hilly so I use the DF for that. Also, whe riding with other DF riders, the V20 is more difficult. I have to leave more space and hang off the back of the bunch, which is not as social.

@DavidCH, that is so true!! The guys in the group were asking how I ended up on the recumbent and I explained about my back issues (which are better than they were when I got the V20). The V20 is much easier to go long on for me. At the moment I can do 1.5-2 hours on the DF before back pain becomes unbearable. That is not an issue on the V20, and the only thing that limits me is my legs (which are probably not great in endurance currently since I never do rides over 2 hours). I have a work Strava challenge coming soon where the aim ir high kms.... so I will test the endurance then. Might aim for a 200km ride but will keep power really low (like 100W!!).
Click to expand...
A friend I cycled to the base of Mt Fuji with suggested going on a 2-day ride in April, but since most of the ride is in traffic I'll probably take my road bike because it is more social, and we'll be stopping quite a bit so I can get a break or 3 on the way to ease the pain. TBH though, I wouldn't be upset if riding through all that traffic somehow got cancelled or moved to a different ride altogether.

I hear that. My heavy commuter bike gets a bit of hill action inside Tokyo, and the traffic lights turn the rides into numerous bursts, so even when I don't get as many kilometers on my V20 as I'd like, I'm still chugging out 5K-7K a year on it. Like you guys, I think it is at the very least keeping my fitness level stable.
 
TransAm

TransAm

Well-Known Member
Frito Bandito said:
A friend I cycled to the base of Mt Fuji with suggested going on a 2-day ride in April, but since most of the ride is in traffic I'll probably take my road bike because it is more social, and we'll be stopping quite a bit so I can get a break or 3 on the way to ease the pain. TBH though, I wouldn't be upset if riding through all that traffic somehow got cancelled or moved to a different ride altogether.

I hear that. My heavy commuter bike gets a bit of hill action inside Tokyo, and the traffic lights turn the rides into numerous bursts, so even when I don't get as many kilometers on my V20 as I'd like, I'm still chugging out 5K-7K a year on it. Like you guys, I think it is at the very least keeping my fitness level stable.
Click to expand...
When I rode out of Tokyo to Mt. Fuji on my DF bike, I could not believe how many traffic lights I had to stop for. It seemed to take forever!
 
Frito Bandito

Frito Bandito

Zen MBB Master
TransAm said:
When I rode out of Tokyo to Mt. Fuji on my DF bike, I could not believe how many traffic lights I had to stop for. It seemed to take forever!
Click to expand...
I think you went around the Yokohama way which means lights pretty much the whole way except for the last 1/4 or so. I went over Doshi road, (413 I think). It is the same route the Olympic cyclists road for the recent Olympics here. Once you get onto it there are not many traffic lights.
 
TransAm

TransAm

Well-Known Member
Frito Bandito said:
I think you went around the Yokohama way which means lights pretty much the whole way except for the last 1/4 or so. I went over Doshi road, (413 I think). It is the same route the Olympic cyclists road for the recent Olympics here. Once you get onto it there are not many traffic lights.
Click to expand...
I actually went direct to Nagatsuta, and it took so long to get there I started looking for a hotel around dinner time. All I could find were no-tell motels with hourly rates because it was the day of the World Cup Rugby finals in Yokohama. I ended up booking a hotel online in Yokohama, but it turned out to be a no-tell hotel, so that was a wasted side trip. I finally saw some rooms drop outside Yokohama around midnight, so I didn't have to ditch nap.
 
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