Let's talk front wheel removal
- Thread starter ratz
- Start date
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Stabilze one side - and idea for the future.
I think I might have an idea to stabilize the front triangle during tire removed for all Cruzbikes that are disc brake ready.
As I was gluing in the derailleur hangers today on both bikes; I had time, while the epoxy hardened for two hours, to stare at the frame and contemplate on a way to improved the situation. Yes I did just sit there and stare at the frame. It's my version of decompressing and it's cheaper than golf. Also it should be said; I really don't think I'm that clever; I just assuming that others probably struggle in similar ways to me; I was swearing at the bike this morning; (or was it the 20F weather) that means opportunities exist.
John, when you design the press fit version of the hanger, I wonder if you could apply the same idea to a connecting bracket on the other size of the axle? My rough thought was that it would be a press fit part installed between the fork and stay in nearly the same way as the hanger. But instead of a hanger it would have a thin arm that ran up along the fork and was bolted into the disc brake mounts either in one or both holes. This might mean having to supplying custom longer bolts in the kit so that people could mount brakes.
The pinching of the derailleur hanger has proved to be strong enough to resist the chain forces; so a small arm on the other side should be able to hold the front triangle together during wheel work. Since it would be press fit it would still be able to rotate and preserved the ability to move the boom during the early tune-up months or at the change of rider / owner. This could also be an upgrade kit for us existing Silvio 2.x users; because we could just order new ends for our stays; and the new component. An extra benefit, of doing this on the none drive side only would allow future people like Eric that prefer to remove the derailleur to continue to do so by using a a non-press fit hanger, just keep those around as an option.
I'm not sure about the others but if this was a retro upgrade kit; I know I'd be order it if worked. I'm curious if others concur.
Disclaimer: This is obviously a SMOE (simple matter of engineering) and we all know that SMOE = a ton of work for little return.
I think I might have an idea to stabilize the front triangle during tire removed for all Cruzbikes that are disc brake ready.
As I was gluing in the derailleur hangers today on both bikes; I had time, while the epoxy hardened for two hours, to stare at the frame and contemplate on a way to improved the situation. Yes I did just sit there and stare at the frame. It's my version of decompressing and it's cheaper than golf. Also it should be said; I really don't think I'm that clever; I just assuming that others probably struggle in similar ways to me; I was swearing at the bike this morning; (or was it the 20F weather) that means opportunities exist.
John, when you design the press fit version of the hanger, I wonder if you could apply the same idea to a connecting bracket on the other size of the axle? My rough thought was that it would be a press fit part installed between the fork and stay in nearly the same way as the hanger. But instead of a hanger it would have a thin arm that ran up along the fork and was bolted into the disc brake mounts either in one or both holes. This might mean having to supplying custom longer bolts in the kit so that people could mount brakes.
The pinching of the derailleur hanger has proved to be strong enough to resist the chain forces; so a small arm on the other side should be able to hold the front triangle together during wheel work. Since it would be press fit it would still be able to rotate and preserved the ability to move the boom during the early tune-up months or at the change of rider / owner. This could also be an upgrade kit for us existing Silvio 2.x users; because we could just order new ends for our stays; and the new component. An extra benefit, of doing this on the none drive side only would allow future people like Eric that prefer to remove the derailleur to continue to do so by using a a non-press fit hanger, just keep those around as an option.
I'm not sure about the others but if this was a retro upgrade kit; I know I'd be order it if worked. I'm curious if others concur.
Disclaimer: This is obviously a SMOE (simple matter of engineering) and we all know that SMOE = a ton of work for little return.
ak-tux
Zen MBB Master
.. I'd like the chainstay
Hello John,
I respect your designs they are very well thought out. However I was wondering whether it is possible to actually have a dropout but move the pivot or rotation point and the RD hanger hanger to be just above the dropout as a press-fit or a countersunk pin junction. This way the leg length adjustment has no effect on the droupout angle
John Tolhurst
Zen MBB Master
On the Silvio chainstay, you
On the Silvio chainstay, you see that both the FD and RD positions are keyed to it, so no matter where it goes, the mech works properly. Don't mess with the mech. An RD hanger that connects to the chainstay but not quite at the end would keep the angles aligned. Connecting to the fork, not. Also, the RD hanger has to be the same for Vendetta, which has a different chainstay end.
On the Silvio chainstay, you see that both the FD and RD positions are keyed to it, so no matter where it goes, the mech works properly. Don't mess with the mech. An RD hanger that connects to the chainstay but not quite at the end would keep the angles aligned. Connecting to the fork, not. Also, the RD hanger has to be the same for Vendetta, which has a different chainstay end.
Eric Winn
Zen MBB Master
Bob, I'm curious how you are
Bob, I'm curious how you are going to change your RD hanger if it gets bent or damaged. Will you be able to remove the epoxied hanger without damaging anything else?
I'm not being snide, I'm really curious if your epoxy solution allows for removal of the RD. This is one of the things that got clobbered when I got hit by that minivan last summer and was easily replaceable. Anytime you go down on your right side you risk bending the RD hanger - as well as grinding up your RD itself...
-Eric
Bob, I'm curious how you are going to change your RD hanger if it gets bent or damaged. Will you be able to remove the epoxied hanger without damaging anything else?
I'm not being snide, I'm really curious if your epoxy solution allows for removal of the RD. This is one of the things that got clobbered when I got hit by that minivan last summer and was easily replaceable. Anytime you go down on your right side you risk bending the RD hanger - as well as grinding up your RD itself...
-Eric
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
3300 psi plastic epoxy
Eric,
It's a 3300 psi plastic polimer epoxy. I've used this before on similar but different bike application. It hardens to a clean poly. For an application like this after you press it with a clamp you get a really thin layer. If I need to remove it; a Small blade screw driver and a rubber mallet can shatter the bond after about four or five precise taps in the seam. I would guess The holding strength is about 50% that of a bolt mounted derailleur hanger. Basically it's good enough to stay adheared under normal riding forces; and enough to keep the derailleur on board during a wheel change; I would expect it to let get in a crash should those force be enough to bend metal the epoxy will fail. As far as cleaning the parts for a full replacement event; it chips free pretty easy.
I specifically selected this grade of epoxy. If I wanted it fused forever; then I would have used JBWeld's Aluminum bonding compounds; that stuff is basically permanent.
Let me ride this for a few weeks and I'll report back and let everyone know if it holds; I'd say there is a 50/50 change it just simply lets go from the vibrations.
In the photos below you see my first attempt to do this. I didn't let it set up long enough and and it didn't hold. So I had to redo it; cleaning the surface was pretty easy.
Notice the gap in the below the hanger in photo two. For some reason, one of my hangers is quite a bit thinner than the rest; the other three fit more snuggly. When I re-did it the second time I switched the hanger out to one that fit better.
Eric,
It's a 3300 psi plastic polimer epoxy. I've used this before on similar but different bike application. It hardens to a clean poly. For an application like this after you press it with a clamp you get a really thin layer. If I need to remove it; a Small blade screw driver and a rubber mallet can shatter the bond after about four or five precise taps in the seam. I would guess The holding strength is about 50% that of a bolt mounted derailleur hanger. Basically it's good enough to stay adheared under normal riding forces; and enough to keep the derailleur on board during a wheel change; I would expect it to let get in a crash should those force be enough to bend metal the epoxy will fail. As far as cleaning the parts for a full replacement event; it chips free pretty easy.
I specifically selected this grade of epoxy. If I wanted it fused forever; then I would have used JBWeld's Aluminum bonding compounds; that stuff is basically permanent.
Let me ride this for a few weeks and I'll report back and let everyone know if it holds; I'd say there is a 50/50 change it just simply lets go from the vibrations.
In the photos below you see my first attempt to do this. I didn't let it set up long enough and and it didn't hold. So I had to redo it; cleaning the surface was pretty easy.
Notice the gap in the below the hanger in photo two. For some reason, one of my hangers is quite a bit thinner than the rest; the other three fit more snuggly. When I re-did it the second time I switched the hanger out to one that fit better.
Rick Youngblood
CarbonCraft Master
Eric - Clearance on the
For me, it's so tight that the zip tie rubs the chain on cog 11t. I have less that a zip ties thickness clearance between fork and cog 11t with chain on my 10 speed drive system.
But for me, my quick solution and less hassle (most important) , is to drop the chain and derailleur.
For me, it's so tight that the zip tie rubs the chain on cog 11t. I have less that a zip ties thickness clearance between fork and cog 11t with chain on my 10 speed drive system.
But for me, my quick solution and less hassle (most important) , is to drop the chain and derailleur.
BentBierz
Well-Known Member
Because it isn't simple or easy for everyone...
Does it really matter that we have had this discussion before? Have you noticed that more potential solutions have been offered due to this topic being discussed again. This is not your typical "chain lube" thread...it is a topic that people genuinely have a concern about and I don't think suggesting that it shouldn't be brought up again serves any real purpose.
Does it really matter that we have had this discussion before? Have you noticed that more potential solutions have been offered due to this topic being discussed again. This is not your typical "chain lube" thread...it is a topic that people genuinely have a concern about and I don't think suggesting that it shouldn't be brought up again serves any real purpose.
BentBierz
Well-Known Member
Rick...are you running a SRAM
Rick...are you running a SRAM chain? They say not to reuse their quick links so I somewhat worry about unhooking my quick link to do this. I have opened and closed the links when I am fitting everything up but once I have ridden and put some real pressure on the chain I get a little more worried about reusing the link. I'm not a cheapskate by any means but I also don't want to replace the link every time I have a flat. That all said, I have read on BROL where people reuse their SRAM links and have never experienced a problem so maybe it is a non-issue and just the SRAM lawyers dictating the SRAM message,
Rick...are you running a SRAM chain? They say not to reuse their quick links so I somewhat worry about unhooking my quick link to do this. I have opened and closed the links when I am fitting everything up but once I have ridden and put some real pressure on the chain I get a little more worried about reusing the link. I'm not a cheapskate by any means but I also don't want to replace the link every time I have a flat. That all said, I have read on BROL where people reuse their SRAM links and have never experienced a problem so maybe it is a non-issue and just the SRAM lawyers dictating the SRAM message,
Rick Youngblood
CarbonCraft Master
Hi Larry
Not Sram but, KMC
Hi Larry
Not Sram but, KMC X10SL 116L 10-Speed Bicycle Chain - Ti-N Gold - KMC links are re-useable. However, I have re-used Sram quick links in the past without failure.
I also carry a spare with me - I'm not a weight weenie
!
Not Sram but, KMC
Hi Larry
Not Sram but, KMC X10SL 116L 10-Speed Bicycle Chain - Ti-N Gold - KMC links are re-useable. However, I have re-used Sram quick links in the past without failure.
I also carry a spare with me - I'm not a weight weenie
trplay
Zen MBB Master
You can drop the chain and DR
You can drop the chain and DR without disconnecting the chain but if one desires reusing the quick link isn't a problem. SRAM says to use one time. KMC does not, switch to them if it makes you more comfortable besides they are cheaper. I've used them (KMC & SRAM) for years (probably close to ten) never once had an issue. I break down chains a lot (I wax) you can tell when a link gets worn as it becomes really easy to separate. They're probably good for around 15-20 times (YMMV).
You can drop the chain and DR without disconnecting the chain but if one desires reusing the quick link isn't a problem. SRAM says to use one time. KMC does not, switch to them if it makes you more comfortable besides they are cheaper. I've used them (KMC & SRAM) for years (probably close to ten) never once had an issue. I break down chains a lot (I wax) you can tell when a link gets worn as it becomes really easy to separate. They're probably good for around 15-20 times (YMMV).
Rick Youngblood
CarbonCraft Master
Now supposable you are
Now supposable you are supposed to be able to use your fingers to un-clip the quick links. But I have not been able to, especially on a hot day along side the road.
Bob, did you mean the quick link pliers? Or an chain breaker? Actually I carry both with me. The chain breaker is part of my Park multi-tool, but unfortunately the pliers are not tiny Park Tool MLP-1.2 Chain Link Pliers .
Lets not get too personal Bob - (but I'm no weenie (well at least on that topic) -
!
Now supposable you are supposed to be able to use your fingers to un-clip the quick links. But I have not been able to, especially on a hot day along side the road.
Bob, did you mean the quick link pliers? Or an chain breaker? Actually I carry both with me. The chain breaker is part of my Park multi-tool, but unfortunately the pliers are not tiny Park Tool MLP-1.2 Chain Link Pliers .
Lets not get too personal Bob - (but I'm no weenie (well at least on that topic) -
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
It's all about the links
Same here; I use SRAM quick links on 10speed chain about 10-15 times, That same chain power my 50lb trike up some monster hills and high torque. Should be find unless you are NFL sized. You can also use 10 spd KMC links on a 10 spd Sram chain.
Also interesting We did a side by side test of the KMC hollow pin 10 speed and the SRAM hollow one on the new builds. They are both deadly quiet; can't tell the difference so we'll probably continue to just run KMC chains.
Now if someone made a tiny Link Pliers... feel free to show me; I'm weight conscious, but I'm no weenie (well at least on that topic)
Edited to correct sentence to be a bout "link Pliers
Same here; I use SRAM quick links on 10speed chain about 10-15 times, That same chain power my 50lb trike up some monster hills and high torque. Should be find unless you are NFL sized. You can also use 10 spd KMC links on a 10 spd Sram chain.
Also interesting We did a side by side test of the KMC hollow pin 10 speed and the SRAM hollow one on the new builds. They are both deadly quiet; can't tell the difference so we'll probably continue to just run KMC chains.
Now if someone made a tiny Link Pliers... feel free to show me; I'm weight conscious, but I'm no weenie (well at least on that topic)
Edited to correct sentence to be a bout "link Pliers
Always-Learnin
Vendetta Love
Boy am I glad...
that I found this link before I got out on the road. This is going to save me a lot of frustration and aggravation.
Thanks for the work-a-round info.
that I found this link before I got out on the road. This is going to save me a lot of frustration and aggravation.
Thanks for the work-a-round info.
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
As a follow up...
The epoxy has worked well; the derailleur and hanger have stayed in place all season without any problems changing the wheel; but I do crack the chain when I have time and the tools.
Now that the Vendetta is built and almost debugged; I'll be able to do without the Silvio for a a day or 2; they'll give me time to debug it and test that removal and clean up go as expected.
FWIW I find that the front end of the Vendetta is far less of a problem; where as the Silvio the derailleur always fell out in my hand; the Vendetta I was able to hold everything together with my hand during my testing. The Nose of the Vendetta is just stiffer and the pieces fit together tighter so that helps check things for collapsing.
I'm betting when when we see the new Silvio's that one of the pearls will be press fit connectors; if that's the case put me on the list of people that would like to purchase an upgrade kit to retro fit out 2.0's
The epoxy has worked well; the derailleur and hanger have stayed in place all season without any problems changing the wheel; but I do crack the chain when I have time and the tools.
Now that the Vendetta is built and almost debugged; I'll be able to do without the Silvio for a a day or 2; they'll give me time to debug it and test that removal and clean up go as expected.
FWIW I find that the front end of the Vendetta is far less of a problem; where as the Silvio the derailleur always fell out in my hand; the Vendetta I was able to hold everything together with my hand during my testing. The Nose of the Vendetta is just stiffer and the pieces fit together tighter so that helps check things for collapsing.
I'm betting when when we see the new Silvio's that one of the pearls will be press fit connectors; if that's the case put me on the list of people that would like to purchase an upgrade kit to retro fit out 2.0's
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
This needs to catch on.
boy would this be outstanding on a FWD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWki2rr8BcY&sns
Sign me up for that.
boy would this be outstanding on a FWD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWki2rr8BcY&sns
Sign me up for that.
