Look out here come the Chinese

[bladderhead]

Oops, sorry, meant to post that to another thread.

 

[bladderhead]

Oops again, it was the right thread.

Had a great time last night. As far as I can remember.

 

[ak-tux]

I think that Titanium bike looks good. My only concern is that I think the head tube looks short. But if it is long enough to form a good welded joint with the main down tube then it's acceptable. I wonder how much it weighs? If the complete bike is anywhere near 10Kg or less then it's worth it.

I see nothing wrong with a custom TI frame copy of any bike built at an individual's order and specifications because it's no different from a DIY build. However, they should not advertise it for mass production.

Otherwise, all those MBB DIY copies of cruzbike out there, actually help to indirectly promote cruzbike acceptance. They also add some improvements to the concept. Look at Marco's la ReV work for example.

Lastly, outside of the USA, acquiring a cruzbike is quite a costly venture. Iam not ashamed to say mine is a DIY copy. It's heavy but at least I can enjoy the MBB bike format without spending a large sum of money. When friends ask I refer them to cruzbike site for a factory built one to consider.

 

[Mark B]

This all comes around full circle to the whole weight weenie thing. It cracks me up when I see a guy on a 15 pound wonder bike and you wonder why he bikes! Yes, yes, all things being equal, if you are racing, your training is on par and a few grams are gonna make the difference, then sure, why not? For most of us Freds, though,who really cares? If you are fit and can ride, you can mop up the field on a walmart bike. If you can't, then that 15# wonder bike does you absolutely no good. I agree that a better bike will encourage you to ride more than a heavy old bike will, but at some point, there is a huge point of diminishing returns on your investment. When it comes right down to it, you have to work on YOU as opposed to shaving grams off the bike. Do the miles, work on your spin technique, build your cardio. Unless.... It's mostly all about having the coolest bike on the block.

Rant mode off.

Mark

 

[dtseng]

Ti-Bikes only put the ad on Internet within a day the message spreads to not only North America, but to Asia and Europe as well. This indicates very clear to me that people are craving for lighter weight MBB bikes. I don't know how long Cruzbike could continue using aluminum alloys for their bikes. They could either shift the manufacturing to China, or better still set up shops here in the States. Cutting corporate taxes is definitely the way to go to encourage investment and to create jobs. China now has highly automated bicycle manufacturing industry, see for example:

http://www.fuji-ta.com/

I used to own a Cannondale aluminum road bike; on the seat stay had a slogan, "Hand Made in America". The days were long gone. I very much want to see "Robot Made in America".

 

[ChaleJake]

If you want handmade in London, Ky...check out http://www.capitolbicycles.com/

 

[ak-tux]

Ti-Bikes only put the ad on Internet within a day the message spreads to not only North America, but to Asia and Europe as well. This indicates very clear to me that people are craving for lighter weight MBB bikes. I don't know how long Cruzbike could continue using aluminum alloys for their bikes.
...".

I think MBB FWD recumbents design are not an exclusive copyright to cruzbike. I believe anyone can manufacturer an MBB FWD recumbent. However, to the best of my knowledge, the telescoping boom design for an adjustable front triangle is a copyright and patent of Cruzbike Inc. I also believe Cruzbike also has a copyright to the conversation kit design which is no longer being produced.

I am not a lawyer, but I don't think the patent restricts an individual from getting a custom built copy from a custom bike builder anymore than one with the right skills can cut and weld one in his workshop.

.. just my opinion.

 

[DavidCH]

Ozy rules robots. Let cruzbike go to market with titomic 3d titanium cruzbikes.

It was so ingrown of me to have a light bike that I made a 5kilo crit racer. No way is it endurance and it's twitchy.

Just got to train myself up with the nearest velodrome ; which is a mile away.

But exciting for sure.

Now if there was a titanium vendetta to switch to... I would change immediately.

 

[dtseng]

Thank you, ak-tux, for your explanation. The seat tube/seat post arrangement has been in bicycle for ages. I knew there was a patent, but didn't bother to read. I am curious to know: would Marco Ruga's La Rev 9 supeleggera, Atom V26 version 9, The yellow jacket, and many many more all infringe Cruzbike patent? If I order the bike from China, I will instruct the factory to make the steering column (forget about the terms, boom/slider) in a gently curved single tube. Would that infringe someone's patent?

 

[ak-tux]

In my humble opinion, I don't think a limited custom built copy for an individual is an infringement. It is the large batch production for sale using exact copies of the design that may be challenged. In that case you should design your own and check for any patent infringement. That is for the lawyers.

I don't think Marco's carbon MBB FWD bike work is an infringement. His reV build procedure and seat adjustments looks fairly original IMHO.

Fyi, MBB FWD recumbent bicycles were invented a while back before cruzbike, I think, by Tom Traylor. Cruzbike added that telescoping adjustability of the front triangle by their creative designer /co-founder John Tolhurst. Since then it's been gradually refined to what we have now.

 

[Rampa]

That company is pretty big, and copies lots of different designs in titanium. I'm sure they're used to getting cease-and-desist notifications.

 

[RojoRacing]

This all comes around full circle to the whole weight weenie thing. It cracks me up when I see a guy on a 15 pound wonder bike and you wonder why he bikes! Yes, yes, all things being equal, if you are racing, your training is on par and a few grams are gonna make the difference, then sure, why not? For most of us Freds, though,who really cares? If you are fit and can ride, you can mop up the field on a walmart bike. If you can't, then that 15# wonder bike does you absolutely no good. I agree that a better bike will encourage you to ride more than a heavy old bike will, but at some point, there is a huge point of diminishing returns on your investment. When it comes right down to it, you have to work on YOU as opposed to shaving grams off the bike. Do the miles, work on your spin technique, build your cardio. Unless.... It's mostly all about having the coolest bike on the block.

Rant mode off.

Mark

People like me ride wonder bikes because we like cool shiny tech focused things, I have no other reason for choosing the stuff I ride.

 

[bladderhead]

Hand-modified in Ilford. My Silvio, my shed.

 

[MrSteve]

Shiny things are pretty.

 

[Mark B]

People like me ride wonder bikes because we like cool shiny tech focused things, I have no other reason for choosing the stuff I ride.

I can live with that.

I've been reading a lot about the "open-mold" carbon fiber (wedgie bike) frames the Chinese are selling and people are dubious of the strength quality of the bikes. Of course, there are opinions all over the place on whether or not it's worth it. The most compelling argument I read was one describing a scenario with a catastrophic frame failure on a group ride.... How it's not just you going down, very likely. This makes a lot of sense.

Looking at the ti-frames and knowing how hard ti is to work/weld... Remembering stories of catastrophic weld failures on big time name brand bikes... Personally knowing a guy that had a head tube come loose from the down tube while descending.... I'm not so sure I'd want to go down that road to save a couple bucks. People will, though, I'm sure.

Mark

 

[dtseng]

We all take calculated risk. Even the most tested civil aircrafts can fall apart. I own CF, Ti, and steel frame road bikes never have any structural problem.

 

[Mark B]

We all take calculated risk. Even the most tested civil aircrafts can fall apart. I own CF, Ti, and steel frame road bikes never have any structural problem.

Same here. There is calculated risk in anything we do. We take measures to reduce risk, though. I'd assume, by and large, the bicycles you own/owned were acquired through normal channels.... I'm talking about established bike companies that stand behind their product and have done the R&D including destructive testing to assure their product is as safe as possible. It seems to me to be a crap shoot with the Chinese made discount frames.

 

[benphyr]

... It seems to me to be a crap shoot with the Chinese made discount frames.

Some reactionary thoughts:
-Can a Ti frame (or Carbon) really be a discount frame? There's a lot of overhead to building out of Ti. Can a company be making discount level junk out of Titanium? Department store bikes - those are discount frames, and in fact all components approach junk status - but they are heavy junk allowing greater tolerances.
-Most material posessions that we consume are made in part or in whole in a factory somewhere that we don't have personal experience with, so we depend on someone else's brand name, personal integrity, etc. at some level. eg. Carvelo are made where ? Not North America if I recall correctly. Apple. etc.
-And alternate reactionary thought: Is it our desire for lowest price at all costs that drives this cut-corners-to-cut-costs decrease in quality. There is a balance, quality vs. price
-And then risk tolerance on things we do know something about is different again. eg. I will ride my bike home with only a front brake, or with a slow leak in the tire, or ... but I wouldn't advise that to someone else.

 

[dtseng]

Back in the old days when Soviet titanium industry had not been fully developed, the outer skin of MIG 29 was made of stainless steel, yet it had the largest combat radius of that era . Since during supersonic flight, the skin temperature can reach 300 Celsius and over, aluminum alloys cannot be used. Now in the surrounding region of Xian China, there is titanium industry supporting their aerospace venture. I had a Ti road bike frame came from that area, both workmanship and weld were top notch. Regarding to the frame shown on post #1, I informed the company that there might be infringement of someone's patent, they immediately removed the ad. I remember many years ago to have a DF frame custom made here in North America, it would cost some where around three thousand dollars. After the Chinese getting into the play, these small operators in the garage can no longer live happily ever after. Lynskey takes the challenge rather well. You can buy their Ti frames for around six hundred dollars on ebay. I am thinking: if Lynskey could make Ti V20 frame for Cruzbike, that frame should not cost more than two thousand seven hundred fifty.

 

[Mark B]

Oh, I know that most of our consumables are made elsewhere, but we do depend on the provider, if you will. If your Apple product takes a dump on you, there is recourse. If your Apple knock off takes a dump, you just go get a new one, or are out. Therein lies the difference. If you buy a Cervelo, you have the guarantee that goes along with it. If you buy a knock off from Alibaba, you are on your own. Yes, we pay a premium for that assurance and peace of mind.

As was stated before, it might be just fine, who knows? The bigger question is, are you willing to take the risk and are you also willing to take the risk for the guy riding right on your back wheel? What about the two or three people right behind him/her?

Don't get me wrong.... I've toyed with the idea of buying a Chinese DF frame and building up a messing around bike, as a project and something to do with old parts. I'm still toying with the idea, but there are some great arguments against it.