Love to get a Vendetta but?
- Thread starter RBW1938
- Start date
Mathew Fy
GRU
I would expect the V20’s greater recline to be a little more aerodynamic, especially with speeds over 20 mph. Maybe someone can chime in with some actual measurements to support this. (Enter “physiology” in the search bar for discussions about how the increased reclining impacts power output, though.) The front-wheel-drive of Cruzbike means lower drive-train losses of a few watts.
RojoRacing
Donut Powered Wise-guy
Matt has a very good point about aerodynamics and general speeds. If you're like me with a general minimum cruising speed of like 24mph(200 watts) of the flats and 250 watts if I'm feeling spicy, then the superior aerodynamics will benefit you greatly. Now if you're 81 years old, I'm thinking your probably not setting any records and your cruising power is half of what someone in their 30's is doing. So if your general cruising speeds are only going to say 18-20 in perfect conditions and closer to 16-17 in realistic conditions the benefits of a superior aerodynamic bike are probably half compared to someone like myself. So no one here is going to be able to answer the true underlying question you have of "will the v20 be a better bike for me" because yes it will be faster but can you be faster on it? and will it be what you want out of a bike?
Honestly, my first impression when reading about your age and what you want to do with the bike I thought the S40 would be the better choice.
Honestly, my first impression when reading about your age and what you want to do with the bike I thought the S40 would be the better choice.
RBW1938
Active Member
Thanks for the info. You are probably right, my cruising speed on the flats on my own is in the 18-22 range with the seat on my CA3 at about 20 degrees. Faster of course riding with a group. Just looking for an edge staying with the faster riders on group ride. Still do about 8000 miles a year and have no inclination to slow down yet.
Tuloose
Guru
What Joy said...
I'll be 74 soon and I love fast cruising, in the high teens, low to mid 20's, on my Vendetta.
It's especially fun if I have a road biker behind me trying to hang on - watching them in my mirror as they get as low as they can on the drops in order to cut down the wind resistance.
I'll be 74 soon and I love fast cruising, in the high teens, low to mid 20's, on my Vendetta.
It's especially fun if I have a road biker behind me trying to hang on - watching them in my mirror as they get as low as they can on the drops in order to cut down the wind resistance.
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Lief
Guru Schmuru
@RBW1938
I have some anecdotal comparisons / information.
2014/2015 examples between Vendetta 2.0 and two different cA2 riders.
I have raced (weekend warrior style) with a guy on a CA2. I don’t know the recline he had, but he was fast and smaller than me; proportions like Jason but without the racing pedigree. The first weekend I got my Vendetta I was able to hang with him. Before that on my Silvio 1.0; no chance.
Then, riding a fast descent in an aggressive pace line with him and one of his friends; a cat 4/3 guy on an upright. They had thousands of miles together trying to crush strava KOM’s; we discussed the experience and he was convinced that even though he could see over me a bit better (because I was more reclined) he felt that the wind/draft was cleaner behind me than the CA2. Probably a 15 mile fast 1-2% hownhill descent where the bents were swapping pulls every 2-3min.
Last anecdote. I raced in the HooDoo 500 in 2015 and rode 90% of the first day with another rider on a CA2. We were pretty well matched size-for-size, rear wheel covers, he had a better front wheel than I did but the aerodynamics were *profoundly* better on the Vendetta - over 20 mph on any flat or downhill (we did a couple of non-scientific tests) I would simply roll away from him or trying to maintain similar wattages on the flats - I had a clear advantage. Watt meter error possibilities were not accounted for. :/ but the downhill coasting was clear.
Pictures later showed just how much he was “up in the air”.
I have some anecdotal comparisons / information.
2014/2015 examples between Vendetta 2.0 and two different cA2 riders.
I have raced (weekend warrior style) with a guy on a CA2. I don’t know the recline he had, but he was fast and smaller than me; proportions like Jason but without the racing pedigree. The first weekend I got my Vendetta I was able to hang with him. Before that on my Silvio 1.0; no chance.
Then, riding a fast descent in an aggressive pace line with him and one of his friends; a cat 4/3 guy on an upright. They had thousands of miles together trying to crush strava KOM’s; we discussed the experience and he was convinced that even though he could see over me a bit better (because I was more reclined) he felt that the wind/draft was cleaner behind me than the CA2. Probably a 15 mile fast 1-2% hownhill descent where the bents were swapping pulls every 2-3min.
Last anecdote. I raced in the HooDoo 500 in 2015 and rode 90% of the first day with another rider on a CA2. We were pretty well matched size-for-size, rear wheel covers, he had a better front wheel than I did but the aerodynamics were *profoundly* better on the Vendetta - over 20 mph on any flat or downhill (we did a couple of non-scientific tests) I would simply roll away from him or trying to maintain similar wattages on the flats - I had a clear advantage. Watt meter error possibilities were not accounted for. :/ but the downhill coasting was clear.
Pictures later showed just how much he was “up in the air”.
DavidCH
In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity
At 81... if you get a Vendetta... you stand to be the fastest 80 year old on a bike. What has age got to do with it? If you have the vendetta more aero then you probably sacrifice power. It's usually determined by the type of seat you have with the vendetta. I am pretty low down on mine. Going down the hills is a blast but going up the hills is always an effort on any bike. Vendetta going up hills takes a little training.
Your post made my day!
I hope to be thinking of more speed in 20 years (a bit less).
Osiris is a member here. He has a CA3, V20, M5, M1, NoCom and probably another. He has posted comparison speeds. If I remember his speed increases from about 24 mph to 25.5 mph going from the CA3 to the V20. I don't think the CA can be made as fast as the V20 in any way shape or form in my opinion.
Assuming you are a very fit 80 year old, you can probably make 160 watts for 10-20 minutes.
- A reduction in CdA from 0.200 to 0.153 will increase your speed from 22 mph to 23.8 mph on flat roads.
- A reduction in CdA from 0.200 to 0.153 will increase your speed from 19.5 mph to 21.2 mph on flat roads.
https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html
RBW1938
Active Member
Great info! I would be considered a very fit 80 year old and if your stats are correct I would love to have that extra 1 or 1.5 mph. Been running Conti 4000's for quite a while and I appreciate the overall performance and good wear I get with them. I have Schwalbe Pro tubeless on my road bike and I think they have the edge in ride quality but not wear.
Thanks everyone for the responses and great information. Keep it coming. Think I may have to start saving some of my social security money for a Vendetta.
Thanks everyone for the responses and great information. Keep it coming. Think I may have to start saving some of my social security money for a Vendetta.
GP4000 are fast tires. I wore mine out before replacing them with GP5000.....these babies last a lot longer than the GP4000 and the tread seems much less susceptible to glass cuts. Not a fan of the Schwalbe Pro tubeless tires but I am in the minority by far-I was wearing them out and/or cutting them too frequently and on real roads, the GP4000 in 28 mm with latex tubes is much faster.
There are lies, damned lies and then there's statistics.
Here's the thing. The overall contribution to aerodynamic drag on an upright is much higher proportionally than a recumbent. So, the bike is important. I mentioned clothing aka kit because many bent riders are in baggy shorts and tee shirts. With my winter wool randonneuring jersey and wool tights, my CdA is around 0.205 plus or minus whereas in my fastest summer kit (skinsuit), I am down around 0.160 (actually much lower than that). What does this mean in real terms. It means on my 115 watts that I target on very long rides, my speed is 19.2 mph with wool and 21 mph in fast kit. 2 mph just in clothing. Extreme? Yes. But real. The actual difference is greater because the air is very dry and cold in winter, which is much slower than less dense summer air (warm and moist). The highly reclined recumbent bike might be 40-50% of the total drag vs maybe 30% on an upright. You still have to get the bike setup properly and your position dialed properly. Larry got down to some really slippery levels but it wasn't free, he had to work at it. I sincerely doubt any CA bike could get as low or fast as a V20 with both setups optimized.
GL finding that speed!!
Kenneth Jessett
Well-Known Member
Bob, being the owner of a Vendetta - plus four road bikes - my experience is that if you are customary recumbent rider you can be fast on a Vendetta, but if you are an habitual standard road bike rider, you will not be. If you spend all your miles riding a Vendetta you will be slow on the standard and vice versa. There doesn't seem to be much crossover benefit.
It is unfortunate that there is such a vast difference in the riding of a moving BB bike that there is little opportunity to try these things out before spending the money to "try them out", unlike regular bikes where every bike shop has bikes to test.
It's best to find some means to dip the toe in, so to speak, before jumping into the deep end of the pool.
My advice will be to find one of the kindly denizens of this forum who live near you to go and try theirs. If you live near me in steamy (96 degrees today) Houston, you are welcome to pop over.
Ken.
BentAero
Well-Known Member
I've had two of the original Bacchetta Ti-aero's, the second one I was riding regularly when I built the vendetta that I had. On flat rides my avg speeds were about the same between the two, generally right around 20 mph. (I'm a weak, low wattage rider; have to spin)
On a hilly course, the Vendetta would crush my Bacchetta times; I just could not make the Ti aero climb. Further, if I layed the seat back on the Bacchetta I would lose 1 mph. I couldn't make power in super reclined position. Once I got used to the V, I quit riding the Aero.
Ed nailed it regarding clothing; it's HUGELY important. I like wearing baggy clothing on a hot day, but doing so is like wearing a parachute.
On a hilly course, the Vendetta would crush my Bacchetta times; I just could not make the Ti aero climb. Further, if I layed the seat back on the Bacchetta I would lose 1 mph. I couldn't make power in super reclined position. Once I got used to the V, I quit riding the Aero.
Ed nailed it regarding clothing; it's HUGELY important. I like wearing baggy clothing on a hot day, but doing so is like wearing a parachute.
Although slightly off topic, I'll try to find a study showing that interval training in the upright position does not carry over to the same level of VO2 max improvement in the recumbent/supine position whereas VO2 max interval training in the recumbent position actually pays off more in the upright position. Don't tell the TdF riders, they will all be rushing out and buying recumbent bikes to train in the closet, so to speak.
An important thing to understand is that at about 15 mph, half of your power goes to defeating air/wind resistance and half goes to mechanical/frictional resistance (all linear factors). At 20 mph, only about 1/3 of the power goes to friction and 2/3 goes to fight the wind. These estimations would be for a very aero recumbent but they are achievable. So what? In real terms, it takes me 55 watts to go 15 mph but on a not as clean recumbent but a fast one nonetheless, it would probably take only another 10 watts. Not really noticeable. Measurable not readily apparent. At 25 mph the most aero recumbent might only require 175 watts total whereas the pretty good one might require 225 watts. 175 watts is about what most average recreation riders who ride frequently can make consistently (maybe not an 80 year old) but 225 watts over a long period of time is not easy. This is more than noticeable-it is like getting slapped in the face apparent. That is the difference between a V20 and a slightly lessor bent, assuming well fit kit, helmet, tires, etc. Can a CA with reclined seat get as fast as a V20? I doubt it, others have tried.
An important thing to understand is that at about 15 mph, half of your power goes to defeating air/wind resistance and half goes to mechanical/frictional resistance (all linear factors). At 20 mph, only about 1/3 of the power goes to friction and 2/3 goes to fight the wind. These estimations would be for a very aero recumbent but they are achievable. So what? In real terms, it takes me 55 watts to go 15 mph but on a not as clean recumbent but a fast one nonetheless, it would probably take only another 10 watts. Not really noticeable. Measurable not readily apparent. At 25 mph the most aero recumbent might only require 175 watts total whereas the pretty good one might require 225 watts. 175 watts is about what most average recreation riders who ride frequently can make consistently (maybe not an 80 year old) but 225 watts over a long period of time is not easy. This is more than noticeable-it is like getting slapped in the face apparent. That is the difference between a V20 and a slightly lessor bent, assuming well fit kit, helmet, tires, etc. Can a CA with reclined seat get as fast as a V20? I doubt it, others have tried.
RBW1938
Active Member
Right Ken, I have been riding recumbents since 1990 and every time I get on my road bike I feel I go 1/2 as fast with twice the effort. This is backed by a substantially higher heart rate on the road bike.
By the way, anyone with a Vendetta in the Lakeland, Florida area, I would love to get a ride.
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Kenneth Jessett
Well-Known Member
I believe Jacquie Schlitter (sp?) (of Schlitter Bikes or Vite) has one and I believe she still lives near Tampa. Go to Vite bikes and make contact.
Ken.
Ken.
Osiris
Zen MBB Master
