Zzzorse
Zen MBB Master
I can ride both but the shorter chainstay is more fun to ride.
MBB on a diet (9 kilograms)
- Thread starter Zzzorse
- Start date
I can ride both but the shorter chainstay is more fun to ride.
markciccio
Active Member
Have you ever seen this? It is a test with a road bike and the first version of my Td mbb, same weight,same rider, same climb, with Power meter.
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
I watched Marko's video where he compared power and speed with wheel covers and no wheel covers. Speed was within 0.1kph. Virtually similar numbers attributed to increased wheel weight making up for slight areo advantage.
The thing that really stood out was his power.
He was pushing 300 watts during each test - with average speed of 40.4 & 40.5 kph. = about 25mph
He also did a "max power" run that showed 350watts for almost 10 minutes and gained less than 2kph. That makes sense.
He is very strong! I used to be able to run at 350watts for 5-6 minutes on my Silvo S30, but have not been able to reach those power numbers reclined at the V's 20 degree angle.
I do think you gain some power making capability with a lower BB/high seat angle, but are also giving up some aero.
My V setup has my BB about 8" higher than the lowest part of my seat - and 20 degree seat angle - but this makes me very aero - I can go 40kph on about 200 watts. Of course there might also be some weight differential. We should probably be comparing watt/Kg numbers. 3.0 gets me about 40kph on a flat loop.
Marko - if you can: Run at 40kph for about 5 miles on a closed loop course and let us know what watt/Kg number is with you latest design.
Love all your videos - and testing for this sport!
The thing that really stood out was his power.
He was pushing 300 watts during each test - with average speed of 40.4 & 40.5 kph. = about 25mph
He also did a "max power" run that showed 350watts for almost 10 minutes and gained less than 2kph. That makes sense.
He is very strong! I used to be able to run at 350watts for 5-6 minutes on my Silvo S30, but have not been able to reach those power numbers reclined at the V's 20 degree angle.
I do think you gain some power making capability with a lower BB/high seat angle, but are also giving up some aero.
My V setup has my BB about 8" higher than the lowest part of my seat - and 20 degree seat angle - but this makes me very aero - I can go 40kph on about 200 watts. Of course there might also be some weight differential. We should probably be comparing watt/Kg numbers. 3.0 gets me about 40kph on a flat loop.
Marko - if you can: Run at 40kph for about 5 miles on a closed loop course and let us know what watt/Kg number is with you latest design.
Love all your videos - and testing for this sport!
markciccio
Active Member
The conclusion is that on that 1 km 10% climb, "IF "the DF and the TD MBB could have the same weight, the performance would be nearly the same. At the moment of the video my recumbent was 11.5 kg and so we added some extra weight on the road bike. Now I have a 9 kg recumbent (but I can go to 8kg) , so the next test will be with the two bikes, without any ballast.
In the video you can see power and BPM in the same screen, at the same time, and you can see that there very little difference from the two bikes.
That was the result on that short climb, at the moment I don't have any other test on longer climbs or in different conditions. In that case the result could be different, I don't know. We will see in a future test...
markciccio
Active Member
This is the video of the test:
You underline some very important aspects.
The Rev was not designed for speed, it was designed for climbing because I love mountains and ascents. So I needed a light bike, easy to ride, fast on climbs. The position of the feet is very low and that results in a quite high drag, but anyway lower that a common road bike, little less lower than a crono bike. The Cruzbike V with 20° seat is of course faster than the Rev and I think that at 40kph the difference could really be 200W drag for the V and 293W for the Rev. This is huge. But take in account that my wearing was a winter version so with gloves, triple sport shirt, winter overshoes and so on.
On the other hand Aero drag is not the only thing. Because I still think my position let me push harder and this could in some way partly compensate drag. The issue is that the "Watt" itself could not be the only parameter to consider. There is comfort. Recumbents are fast bikes but how many times have you heard someone saying "my BPM stay low ". This is the problem: can I push as hard as I want if the position is not the most comfortable? It is like to run the 100 meters flat at the Olimpic Games but with tied arms. You can go fast but your power will not be the same with free arms....
On the other side, of course, even weight is important. I weigh 79 kg, the bike in the condition of the test was 9.2 kg with the Ambrosio wheelset and 10 kg with the wheels with covers. The main issue was the intertia of the wheels. I prefer a little more drag but less inertia.
What I see with the Rev is that as global performance on a common 100- 120 km sunday ride with 800-1000 vertical height difference, is very fast, the fastest bike I have ever driven.
An important thing about power: the Watts shown in the table at the end of the video are "estimated" by Strava and not my "real" power. Estimated for road bikes performance and not for recumbents...
For all my tests I use my BPM as for the main parameter and not power for two reasons: because I don't own a power meter and, secondary, because I want to see the global performance of my body on the bike and not only my power on pedals on wheels. I hope this can make some sense.
In that "San Colombano" climbing test I used a power meter of a friend of mine, Alberto. It was very useful because in that occasion I run 300W at 166BPM and that was, at that time, my power vs BPM.
So, in my opinion those 293W shown in the table of the last video could be a little less. I repeat, my aim is to make a comparison between different setup of my bike and not some absolute performance.
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ak-tux
Zen MBB Master
Priceless!
@LarryOz, I wonder how it feels to climb a 15-20% grade with a seat reclined at 20deg and with the BB at 8 inches above the lowest part of your seat. I believe you encountered those at RAAM. I know human beings can adapt to most situations, but how long did it take for you to adapt to that? Is your power output while climbing 10%-15% grades on the V20 similar to that of climbing the same grade on a DF or a more upright S30/S40 ? It would be nice to compare the three (and use some ballast/water bottles to equalize the weight differences between the bikes).
Larry do you still have your S30? I wonder how much power and performance an S30 frame with a S40/v20 front triangle attached will allow?
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Mathew Fy
GRU
I’m reminded of Jim Parker’s test of fixed vs. freely moving bottom bracket where the freedom to move about resulted in higher power generation with similar heart rate. I wonder if there are any changes you can do to improve power output. I’ll sometimes pull hard on the bars and drive my shoulders into the seat back to crank out some extra power, but can’t do that for very long.
markciccio
Active Member
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
It is harder in my opinion to make the power going up those steeps grades so laid back. This might have to do with your heart being way lower than your legss not sure. I do not think I ever "adapted" to those steep climbs. I did not train for them specifically, I just trained to be able to ride at a constant wattage for 6 hours a day. We just knocked out those steep climbs out as fast as we could and went on from there.
I do not ride a DF very much, but in my testing I am able to crank out significantly more watts (100+) going up steep grades. Wish I could figure out how to do it on a Cruzbike.
No, I do not have my S30. I traded it for my first Vendetta. I am hoping that Cruzbike will loan me a frame (hint, hint) to do some testing here in the mountains of NC. I think the S40 will allow me make more power and therefore go faster up the hills.
markciccio
Active Member
bladderhead
Zen MBB Master
Neither did I.LarryOz said:
In my case it is the other way round.LarryOz said:
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Hi Marko,
I really enjoy watching all you testing and what you are testing.
I test all kinds of things as well.
I do believe that you are missing the opportunity to have better and more consistent, reproducible, and comparable results by collecting and recording the actual power (as well as your weight, and the weight of the bike) used during your tests. You appear to test mostly by your HR (although I thought I did see some power data in at least one of your tests).
The reason I say this is that HR can be very fickle. Higher temps cause it to go higher. How fatigued you are at a certain time can also cause it to read higher. Being very well rested will cause it to read lower for the same power output. Being sick or recovering affects it. I have even seen my HR elevate 10-15bpm after eating something substantial. Just what you thinking about at the time will cause it to fluctuate by 10-15bpm. And lastly your fitness will have a profound affect on your HR.
But power is power, and that is really what you want to be measuring when you are comparing 2 different things.
What I do is set up a field on my Garmin for avg pow per lap. Then I ride that lap and monitor the avg power to be what I want it to be for each test. Then the average speed will show which is better. You can also do the same thing by trying to match a speed and see which lap used more or less power.
Once you can record and save all your tests by watts/kg effort over a closed course, then all your tests will be more easily comparable with each other.
Larry
I really enjoy watching all you testing and what you are testing.
I test all kinds of things as well.
I do believe that you are missing the opportunity to have better and more consistent, reproducible, and comparable results by collecting and recording the actual power (as well as your weight, and the weight of the bike) used during your tests. You appear to test mostly by your HR (although I thought I did see some power data in at least one of your tests).
The reason I say this is that HR can be very fickle. Higher temps cause it to go higher. How fatigued you are at a certain time can also cause it to read higher. Being very well rested will cause it to read lower for the same power output. Being sick or recovering affects it. I have even seen my HR elevate 10-15bpm after eating something substantial. Just what you thinking about at the time will cause it to fluctuate by 10-15bpm. And lastly your fitness will have a profound affect on your HR.
But power is power, and that is really what you want to be measuring when you are comparing 2 different things.
What I do is set up a field on my Garmin for avg pow per lap. Then I ride that lap and monitor the avg power to be what I want it to be for each test. Then the average speed will show which is better. You can also do the same thing by trying to match a speed and see which lap used more or less power.
Once you can record and save all your tests by watts/kg effort over a closed course, then all your tests will be more easily comparable with each other.
Larry
markciccio
Active Member
Yes, I konw.
These are simple tests, in which I just try to know the "order of magnitude".
I usually compare in the same day the different configurations, to minimize the influence of various physical factors, as you correctly write.
In the last video I dared to compare an old test (10 days before) but I know it is not the best way. Anyway the not negligible gain for rear wheel cover, in the same day, with same BPM can tell me something that will be useful, at least for me. The same for those aero bars (unnecessary in my opinion) and the same for seat position. As for tight jacket and pants, I have to test properly because they were tested in different days but my sensation is that the gain is not low.
All these test are not about "how much?" but "is it worth it?". The downside of all these test with bpms is that I cannot compare different days performace, it is clear. Another aspect is that of the repeatability of the results but at the moment I have very little time. It is not ideal but I make do....
Actually I don't have a power meter, the one I used on that climb test that was form my friend Alberto. Maybe in the future climb test I will ask him and we will use it again. As for now my bpm could be in some way useful in a single day test, to test two o three diffenent configuration and that's it.
I know your excel sheets about your comparisons with power meter for different bike configurations an I like them very much and infact were inspirational for my "home made" tests.
These are simple tests, in which I just try to know the "order of magnitude".
I usually compare in the same day the different configurations, to minimize the influence of various physical factors, as you correctly write.
In the last video I dared to compare an old test (10 days before) but I know it is not the best way. Anyway the not negligible gain for rear wheel cover, in the same day, with same BPM can tell me something that will be useful, at least for me. The same for those aero bars (unnecessary in my opinion) and the same for seat position. As for tight jacket and pants, I have to test properly because they were tested in different days but my sensation is that the gain is not low.
All these test are not about "how much?" but "is it worth it?". The downside of all these test with bpms is that I cannot compare different days performace, it is clear. Another aspect is that of the repeatability of the results but at the moment I have very little time. It is not ideal but I make do....
Actually I don't have a power meter, the one I used on that climb test that was form my friend Alberto. Maybe in the future climb test I will ask him and we will use it again. As for now my bpm could be in some way useful in a single day test, to test two o three diffenent configuration and that's it.
I know your excel sheets about your comparisons with power meter for different bike configurations an I like them very much and infact were inspirational for my "home made" tests.
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Thanks for your explanation Marko - I understand what you are doing now, and I hope you did not think I was being to critical. You're bicycle builds and tests are fantastic and great for everyone! Keep up the good work. Hopefully someday we can meet up and do some testing together!
markciccio
Active Member
Would be great! I don't know where or when but some day...I do hope!
Aerodynamic tests for my bike are important (I have a race on a closed flat circuit at the end of this month and I want to be prepared) but now I will focus on climbing performance, the reason I build my bike. I want to know how fast or slow it is compared with other bikes or with itself in different conditions.
My question is: is it possibile to have an "overall" fast recumbent bike? Could it be quite fast on flat (not the fastest, the V20 is for example is much faster and I know very well) and quite fast on climbs as well? On which routes could it be faster (if it can) than a road bike or other recumbens?
I hope this topic is interesting...
Aerodynamic tests for my bike are important (I have a race on a closed flat circuit at the end of this month and I want to be prepared) but now I will focus on climbing performance, the reason I build my bike. I want to know how fast or slow it is compared with other bikes or with itself in different conditions.
My question is: is it possibile to have an "overall" fast recumbent bike? Could it be quite fast on flat (not the fastest, the V20 is for example is much faster and I know very well) and quite fast on climbs as well? On which routes could it be faster (if it can) than a road bike or other recumbens?
I hope this topic is interesting...
