New Guy - lots of questions

[Lorenzo]

Total recumbent newb. Thanks for your patience and help in advance.

Just ordered an S40 frameset. I will build it with Sram Red. 50/34 crankset, 11/36 cassette, and Juin Tech GT brakes (surprised more on this forum aren't using them), and some nice carbon wheels on DTSwiss350 from my winter bike.

Me - former competitive cyclist with a stable of high-end road bikes. (Latest is a Factor Ostro VAM, Dura Ace Di2). I still train very hard (FTP on a DF is still north of 300 watts). More endurance focused the last few years to the tune of 30,000km per year. My riding is mostly dedicated to preparing for epic European mountain trips during the summer (search “Cent Cols Challenge” if you are curious). High mileage has resulted saddle contact issues. I figured a recumbent would be a good way to keep my fitness while awaiting surgery (yes ass surgery), and to reduce conventional saddle time in future years. I still plan to take only a DF to Europe if I can.

Choice of S40? More interested in superior handling and maneuverability. V20c seems to be a real speed weapon, but maybe too low and laid back to be around cars and other bikes. Not looking for extra speed. The S40 seemed a better fit to my local terrain which is highly technical in places and includs abundant short climbs ranging from 5 – 12%. Nothing shipped yet so not too late to change.

The questions –

Does a standard chain fit? Or do I need to splice two to make one?

Regarding the SRAM groupset. Is it true that the front derailleur stock mounting groove is not low enough for proper shifting with 50-34 and Sram Red Yaw FD?

Do I want the Ventisit?

What about recumbutt? Do I want a Thor seat?

Do I want the light mount stub or is mounting on the handlebars OK?

What about shoes? On a conventional road bike, I never put my foot down, just track stand. I assume a recumbent means feet on the ground regularly - perhaps a mountain bike shoe is a better choice. Hate the idea wearing the heels off of $600 road shoes.

Very curious about the braking. I have always been an aggressive descender on a conventional road bike, and therefore deeply programmed to get low, drive the body back as far as possible, brace against the pedals and bar, and squeeze the front brake as hard as I can when I need to decelerate in a hurry. Looks like shoving the body back and lowering the center of gravity is not really an option on a recumbent, and there looks to be a far bit of weight past the front wheel. So more rear brake than a conventional road bike? or just be careful?

I admit to being worried about climbing and the highly technical terrain on my various routes. Read quite a bit on this forum an the incidence of crashes seems incredibly high. I have been riding seriously since 1979, and while I been in a couple of peloton chaos stack ups, I have never crashed as a single rider either in or out of competition. The stories of people just losing control and hitting the deck have left me a bit unnerved. First time I have ever felt anxious on a bike and I am not even on it yet lol.

Thanks again.

Lorenzo

 

[LarryOz]

The questions –

Does a standard chain fit? Or do I need to splice two to make one?

Regarding the SRAM groupset. Is it true that the front derailleur stock mounting groove is not low enough for proper shifting with 50-34 and Sram Red Yaw FD?

Do I want the Ventisit?

What about recumbutt? Do I want a Thor seat?

Do I want the light mount stub or is mounting on the handlebars OK?

What about shoes? On a conventional road bike, I never put my foot down, just track stand. I assume a recumbent means feet on the ground regularly - perhaps a mountain bike shoe is a better choice. Hate the idea wearing the heels off of $600 road shoes.

Very curious about the braking. I have always been an aggressive descender on a conventional road bike, and therefore deeply programmed to get low, drive the body back as far as possible, brace against the pedals and bar, and squeeze the front brake as hard as I can when I need to decelerate in a hurry. Looks like shoving the body back and lowering the center of gravity is not really an option on a recumbent, and there looks to be a far bit of weight past the front wheel. So more rear brake than a conventional road bike? or just be careful?

I admit to being worried about climbing and the highly technical terrain on my various routes. Read quite a bit on this forum an the incidence of crashes seems incredibly high. I have been riding seriously since 1979, and while I been in a couple of peloton chaos stack ups, I have never crashed as a single rider either in or out of competition. The stories of people just losing control and hitting the deck have left me a bit unnerved. First time I have ever felt anxious on a bike and I am not even on it yet lol.

Thanks again.

Lorenzo

Welcome to the tribe Lorenzo. I have some experience on a S40, but more on a V20 - however I learned on a Silvio 2.0 8 years ago which is pretty equivalent to the S40.

My answers:
Your chain length is determined by the length of your chainstay and also you gears. I am really short and ride a tight cluster with no mountains so can get away with a regular length. I would by an extra chain and use it for extra links it will last a long time as you will probably only need a few of them.
I cannot answer your groupset question - but I know the stock S40 is setup with 1x11, so you might consider that or even 1x12 system so the FD Is not an issue
I ride Ventisit but I mostly ride my V20 - it is very wonderful for drying up sweat under you. It is really rough though and I think on an S40 it might rub you raw because you may tend to slide more than on a V20- I would probably pass - but it is not that expensive of an option to just buy and see if you like it.
You will feel recumbent but on the S40, but if you ride it exclusively for about 1000 miles you will probably get over it. The other key is riding enough that you get used to it. I don't think you will have that problem.
You want the light out front - if on your handlebars your legs interrupt the beam and you can't see as well at night.
Yeah - I started with Mountain bike shoes -they work best if you have to unclip a lot and walk around a lot too. - I also like mid-sole cleats, but not sure if they make then for mountain bikes.
Breaking is a learning process on a bent and changes from person to person based on weight, wheel and tire type. Biggest risk is hard braking on the front with "any" chance of loose gravel, sand, etc. This is where you will slide out very easily because of the lower COG.
Climbing: My worst crashes have always been because of front flats. I ride tubeless now - I would advise it. For climbing - just practice on shorter grades until you feel good with it. Just like on an upright bike, the more control you have as slower speeds the better. It translates to better control overall
Stuff you did not ask about:
Expect to ride shorter cranks than you do on your upright. Forget about the "I'll lose leverage" argument. That is what gears are for. The biggest benefit of long cranks on an upright is that you can stand on them and use your weight and gravity to help you climb. ON a bent - you will learn to spin faster and climb that way. I ride 140mm cranks and love them I have convinced dozens of people to ride shorter cranks - even the owners Cruzbike. Shorter cranks mean you legs don't have to move up and down and in and out as far. You also spin up super fast, and then when you are spinning fast your legs won't feel like they are flailing around. I trained and raced for years at 100 rpm. Use this link to help you figure out proper crank length: http://recumbents.com/wisil/misc/crank_angle.asp
Another thing you will have to learn is that you cannot see down the road nearly as well as on an upright. An S40 is not nearly as bad as a V20, but you will still have less time to react to bad roads and bad cyclists or cars. You also cannot bunny hop over obstacles. It is a little harder to try and "ride around" them at high speed especially if you suspect anything that will make your front wheel slide out. If in question: hole the handlebars tight and ride right through it.
Have fun - and I look forward to you progress.
Larry

 

[Lorenzo]

Thank you LarryOz. Some things to think about.
Yes I have seen the super short crank discussions and I am not opposed. OTOH, lot's of people here seem happy with 160 or 165. The nice thing about 160mm is you can get them. Praxis is a good product. I am 6 feet (183 cm) tall and use 170mm cranks on my DF, so shorter than most people my size. I will start with them because I have them but keep and open mind.

I think this whole thing is going to be really weird for me. Even the aesthetic is hard to reconcile. Whereas most people seem to come to recumbents due spinal issues, and find great relief when they no longer have to bend over, I was never happier than resting my forearms on my bars, my back dead horizontal, and eyes peaking out of the top my sunglasses on a rock solid DF road bike with the bars set low. Time to lay back I guess.

 

[Robert Holler]

Larry is (as always) super wise and great advice. I concur. You will love the S40 - it is my go to bike (and having the original home welded design as we I[pieced it together years ago it has a special place for me) and it is indeed the best option for being around other riders and traffic. Sublime for the all-around while rewarding you with speed for your efforts!

Welcome to Cruzbike and to the forums!

 

[Lorenzo]

@Robert Holler, thanks for the warm welcome. Your engagement with and service to your customers is first class and should be an example to others in this industry. And thank you for the confirmation on the S40. All my research suggest this is my best choice.

What is the community consensus for small scale storage. On my DF I head out with some gels, bars, sandwich, a wind layer, and Dynaplugs tucked neatly in my pockets. Only use a saddle bag on days or when more clothing, rain gear etc. is required. But bent means no pockets so... does strapping a standard small saddle bag to the headrest bar work?

There is this sort of thing: https://www.radicaldesign.com/solo-aero-narrow. Very slick design but it has a 12 litre capacity and weighs over a pound. Great for touring, but silly for a couple of gels. Similar designs are also quite huge.

 

[Maria Parker]

You can still use pockets on your traditional jersey, just not the rear middle pocket, but the right and left work are free of the seat. We sell the sling pack for more storage. Consider your head position when you get started. We have some options for moving your head forward for a better view of the road. I like the suspension adjustable headrest on my S40 (and V20 for that matter). Leave your handlebars for only your cell phone, bike computer, and mirror. If you have thinner legs, also consider upgrading to narrower road bars after you get very comfortable on the bike.

 

[Beano]

Does a standard chain fit? Or do I need to splice two to make one? You need one and a bit, so yes you need to have two chains.

Regarding the SRAM groupset. Is it true that the front derailleur stock mounting groove is not low enough for proper shifting with 50-34 and Sram Red Yaw FD? No it's not, I use SRAM red on my S40 with a 50/34 and it works fine.

Do I want the Ventisit? Up to you, personally I would say yes. Wicks sweat away better than the cushion and is more comfortable than just using the seat

What about recumbutt? Do I want a Thor seat? Recumbent butt from what I have read is based more on a lower cadence which leads to cramping in the glutes (glutes are utilized more on a recumbent). People have fitted Thor seats on this forum, use the search function and there are some threads giving details regarding fitting, experiences using them etc.

Do I want the light mount stub or is mounting on the handlebars OK? Light stub. ime handlebar you are lighting your feet and not the road.

What about shoes? On a conventional road bike, I never put my foot down, just track stand. I assume a recumbent means feet on the ground regularly - perhaps a mountain bike shoe is a better choice. Hate the idea wearing the heels off of $600 road shoes. The seat on a S40 is quite low for a recumbent. At six foot you should have no problem getting your foot down so that it is sole down and not toe on the road which can scuff.

Very curious about the braking. I have always been an aggressive descender on a conventional road bike, and therefore deeply programmed to get low, drive the body back as far as possible, brace against the pedals and bar, and squeeze the front brake as hard as I can when I need to decelerate in a hurry. Looks like shoving the body back and lowering the center of gravity is not really an option on a recumbent, and there looks to be a far bit of weight past the front wheel. So more rear brake than a conventional road bike? or just be careful? Hmm, this is all based on experience, on the S40 you will have a lower centre of gravity. It's harder to shift your weight more on a recumbent. I think this is one of those things that you'll learn with experience. +1 on the Juin Tech brakes by the way, I have them on all my Cruzbikes.

I admit to being worried about climbing and the highly technical terrain on my various routes. Read quite a bit on this forum an the incidence of crashes seems incredibly high. I have been riding seriously since 1979, and while I been in a couple of peloton chaos stack ups, I have never crashed as a single rider either in or out of competition. The stories of people just losing control and hitting the deck have left me a bit unnerved. First time I have ever felt anxious on a bike and I am not even on it yet lol. Erm, you may fall over. Me personally I have only ever fallen over once on a Cruzbike and that was when my front tyre suddenly failed and had me heading towards a kerb at 20mph. So steering away the front tyre came away and the bike came from underneath me. A bit of road rash and the bike was fine.

Regarding climbing you will be slower on a Cruzbike as it is heavier. However this is not to say that recumbents cannot climb. As Mike Burrows (RIP) once said. bike don't climb hills people do. IME the biggest factor when climbing on a recumbent is gearing. Works at using lower gearing and keeping a higher cadence.



Good luck.

 

[Lorenzo]

If you have thinner legs, also consider upgrading to narrower road bars after you get very comfortable on the bike.

I have a spare 44cm Pro Vibe carbon bar. Was thinking of building with that instead of the stock bars. Not narrow by modern DF standards, but OK to start? Or will I need the added stability of the flared stock bars?

You need one and a bit, so yes you need to have two chains.

And when I think of all the "bits" of chain I have discarded.... Changed the chains on 5 DF bikes this summer.

No it's not, I use SRAM red on my S40 with a 50/34 and it works fine.

That's good news. I assume the FD stock has been modified to allow lower positioning of the FD. That wasn't quite clear from my research. Would you happen to have knowledge if even smaller double setups would work equally well - specifically a 48-32 crankset?

Thanks,
L

 

[Frito Bandito]

I have the shorter chain stays on my V20 which takes 118 links, and Shimano does sell a 118 link 12 speed Ultegra chain.

 

[cpml123]

I live in area with lots of hills. :-( S40 can climb those 5-12% with no problem. My gearing is 52/34 with 11/40, 10 speed GX. I can't remember my chain length except it required three chains to make two sets.

I did crash 2-3 times, but all of them at 4-5mph while going uphill (knock on wood). Just too wobbly and couldn't balance. I have Thor seat with Cruzbike suspension neckrest, a really good combination. I like the Thor seat because it supports my shoulder much better. I have always worn mountain shoes, even when I rode the DF bike. It is just much easier to walk around. I have the Cruzbike sling pack to hold my spare tube, tools, phone, wallet, a couple protein bars.

Enjoy!
Michael

 

[xtalbike]

Just to provide an alternative point of view, I think you will love a V20c with the carbon adjustable seat. I have a V20c set up that way, V20 with conventional seat, and S40. For long rides V20c with the adjustable seat is the king of comfort, gives me better down-the-road visibility than the stock seat, no recumbutt, works great with the gearing you mention, and is pretty darned fast. That seat is also compatible with the Bacchetta Brain Box or Radical Design Solo Aero in case you want to carry more than will fit in your side pockets (and improve your aerodynamics). Braking has never been a problem for me but climbing definitely takes practice.

I don't feel a big difference riding in traffic on the S40 vs. V20 though I do use the S40 for all my commutes into town (because it has a rack).

For me the speed difference between S40 and V20 (with or without 'c') is pretty big. Effort for 16-17 mph on the S40 is similar to that for 20+ on the V20. I can't ride with the group that I regularly rode with on DF using the S40 but I can using the V20, I get behind on the uphills but can always catch up on the flats and downhills. I'm comfortable in a group on the V20 though I leave a bigger gap to the person in front of me than I would on a DF.

Bottom line is you should definitely get both

 

[Lorenzo]

Interesting points xtalbike. I guess it all comes down to aerodynamics. What caught my attention is that you are slower on the S40 than your DF. I assume that catching up to your group is that much tougher on the S40 vs the V20? Or are you saying that you are outright slower on the S40 than the DF in all situations? I would think not, but of course at this point I know next to zero about this game.

Both bikes? That would be nice but I have way too many bikes. Between my wife and I there are 9 road and gravel bikes hanging in our bike room, and four mountain bikes in the garage.

But perhaps the biggest decider for me is that this bike will be used to keep my training going without spending time on a conventional DF saddle. That means winter riding and fenders. I live in the Pacific Northwest and train all year. It rarely gets below freezing, but roads are often wet from November to March, so fenders are a must. I also believe that bigger tires on the road will address some issues inherent to riding a recumbent. I would like to be able to run 32mm with fenders and 35mm without. I can't do that on a V20. Perhaps your right. Maybe I do need both.

 

[xtalbike]

I'd be curious what others think about fenders. I live in the northeast and ride all winter. If it's icy I use studded tires on the S40. I haven't used fenders. The seat actually blocks a lot of spray from both wheels and your feet are up and forward so they don't get particularly wet. I think the V20c can handle wider tires. There's been some discussion on other threads of the maximum. I haven't tried anything bigger than 25 but there's plenty of room left.

I would not be able to ride with my usual group on the S40. Your power numbers are better than mine. On the DF I was never one of the faster riders in the group but could keep up. On the S40 I would be off the back in a hurry. On the V20 on the right terrain (rollers where the uphills are short enough to keep some momentum) I can end up having to wait for people. I think my S40 could be optimized to make it faster (long chain stay to get my feet higher and take the rack off) but it's my commuter and I'm not motivated to change it. There are certainly people on this list who make the S40 go quite a bit faster than I do.

 

[cpml123]

. I live in the Pacific Northwest and train all year. It rarely gets below freezing, but roads are often wet from November to March, so fenders are a must.

Hey I am in the Seattle area. You should stop by if you are around here. I have a V20, S40 and Q45. I only ride outside when it's sunny and not freezing, which unfortunately means only the dry days from April to October. Right now the V20 is on the trainer while the Q45 is getting modified into a Q40 in the garage. I have fenders on my S40 for the rare occasion that I am riding while the road is wet. I use Schwalbe g one speed 700x38 tires. Pretty cushy.

Michael

 

[DavidCH]

General rule... stick to figure eights and go slow and work on your balance. I would almost say its impossible for you to fall over your bars on a bent. Many of us have disc brakes on the front and we use them well. There was one member here who goes down his local mountain so fast that his bike leaves the ground (then breaking doesn't matter).

If you are doing hills , I would suggest go for a boom that's not horizontal... so if you are 5'10 like me go with medium chainstay 21.5.

 

[Frito Bandito]

Interesting points about the tires. I was running Schwalbe Ones, Pro Ones, both tubeless and tubed, and it was the maximum width I could get on the rear of my rim braked 2018 V20 was 700x28mm with my Campagnolo Bullet 50, Bullet 80 and Scirocco (35mm deep). The gap between the tire and the brake bridge was just a sliver so I never bothered to look for wider Schwalbe tires. However, I just put on a pair of 700x28mm tubed Continental GP 5000 tires and the gap between the tire and the brake bridge looks like it could handle 700x30mm easily, and I'm fairly certain that a 700x32mm Conti Gp5000 would fit on the rear too just by eyeballing it. You'd think there wouldn't be such a huge difference in width between them but there is on my rims.

A guy I am following on Strava just completed a 400km ride on his Cinelli Vigorelli and he had a fender that connected only to the seat stays, so I commented on his ride and asked him what model that fender was and will post either here or on my V20 thread later once he replies. Here is a pic of it though.

 

[Don1]

I would keep your road shoes, your heals don't touch the ground first and you will miss your nice shoes. I have my cleat tension pretty light and unclip both at once. Weight distribution is more 50/50 rather than 40/60 of a road bike and braking is far superior(lower cog). I would use the standard flared handlebars until you know what handlebars would suit you. Normal bars will dig into your ribs while learning. The s40 is just a little better aero than the road bike and a bit easier to learn than v20. I bought a v20 after building a cruzclone with variable geometry and found 30-40 set angle very familiar but v20 is just ride all day comfortable cruzing at 36-38kph and not be sore or numb anywhere. If you do a lot of group rides you will loose fitness on a v20, since it is so aero and everyone will complain about no sit. Descending is interesting since your feet are connected to the steering but it's doable. You do have to commit to a line. Once your happy and understand that it's not much different to a road bike except your lying down you will be 10-15kph faster terminal speed. Oh, when you stretch you maintain your aero position. As Maria said you can use your normal jersey and bibs but cant use middle pocket(but put your rain cape there for lumbar support,lol) cruzbike have storage solutions in accessories. You can strap a saddle bag easily to the headrest. There are many hydration ideas, I made a 2l barrel holder that sits behind the head with a Camelback tube. Recommend using tubeless for sure (I use tyrewiz as well) many recommend varia radar and good mirrors are necessary. Anyways, welcome.

 

[Frito Bandito]

The fender is an SKS Raceblade Pro.

 

[ak-tux]

What about recumbutt? Do I want a Thor seat?

Welcome to the tribe!

Here is my take on S40 Recumbutt and other fit issues :

Optimizing Fit - Eliminate Recumbutt/Hot Foot

I think this should be a useful thread all together about how to fix recumbutt on S40 and other fit issues). Lets discuss. I've never ridden a V20 but Iam blessed to have a S40 gifted to me by some great friends here. I love my S40 and I ride it alot despite my initial fit and hotfoot...

forum.cruzbike.com

 

[Lorenzo]

Interesting points about the tires. I was running Schwalbe Ones, Pro Ones, both tubeless and tubed, and it was the maximum width I could get on the rear of my rim braked 2018 V20 was 700x28mm with my Campagnolo Bullet 50, Bullet 80 and Scirocco (35mm deep). The gap between the tire and the brake bridge was just a sliver so I never bothered to look for wider Schwalbe tires. However, I just put on a pair of 700x28mm tubed Continental GP 5000 tires and the gap between the tire and the brake bridge looks like it could handle 700x30mm easily, and I'm fairly certain that a 700x32mm Conti Gp5000 would fit on the rear too just by eyeballing it. You'd think there wouldn't be such a huge difference in width between them but there is on my rims.

A guy I am following on Strava just completed a 400km ride on his Cinelli Vigorelli and he had a fender that connected only to the seat stays, so I commented on his ride and asked him what model that fender was and will post either here or on my V20 thread later once he replies. Here is a pic of it though.

View attachment 14179

What you are noticing is reduction in size by tire manufacturers in response to wider rims. Years ago the inside dimension of clincher rims was 13 - 15mm. Then17mm for a while, followed by 19mm (which is still used by some wheel brands). Now 21mm is fairly standard with 23 - 25mm internal width gaining market share quickly. Manufacturers have made their tires smaller so that the Width As Measured (WAM) is closer to the size printed on the side of the tire. Consider that today's Continental GP5000 28mm size is about halfway between the original Continental GP4000 23mm and 25mm. They have shrunk that much. Add to that that some manufacturers simply make bigger tires.

This evolution is driven by the move to disc brakes which allowed more space for wide rims and tires. The wider rims then exposed the fact that the aerodynamic advantage of deep carbon wheels depended almost totally on external width of the rim being greater than the width of the inflated tire. the ideal relationship is said to be 105%. Some aerodynamicists have argued that if the tire is wider than the rim, the advantage of a deep rim over a shallow rim is completely lost. More importantly for those of us who are not racing but still like our deep carbon wheels, is that when the tire on the front wheel is narrower than the rim, cross wind effect is mostly eliminated.