New owner's impressions after three weeks

[elg]

It's been a fun few weeks with my new Sofrider. The first few days of riding in the alley to get the hang of it were pretty trying. Within about a week, though, I felt comfortable enough to start commuting to work on it. I'm still a bit wobbly, but I'm liking the bike. Apart from the challenge of riding my first recumbent, and a FWD one at that, my biggest problem has been with the drive train. I'll give the details below in my roundup of "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly".


Good:

Very comfortable (when settled into the seat it feels like I should be holding a beer and a TV remote)
Climbs hills well (can really push against seat)
Downhill coasting is very fast and very stable (with up/down pedals and equal foot pressure it's much more solid than just handlebars on a DF)
When sitting up with feet down it's even more stable than a standard bike and equally maneuverable
Fits on transit
Supplied mirror gives good view of road
Suspension handles rough streets very well.

Bad:

Uphill starting is very difficult. If the bike is in too high a gear it can be impossible without getting off and working the pedals by hand to downshift - a procedure that is rather unflattering for both the rider and the bike.
Wobbly and jittery (still new at riding, may get better)
Rear suspension clunks and groans
Heavy front swings at inopportune times when moving bike around
Seat can get hot and sweaty on back
Right handgrip keeps falling off (need compression end plug to hold it)
Few good options for racks and bags (I made my own from a child size backpack)
Can't ride like a scooter, kicking with one leg to move gently among pedestrians
Menacing and oily chain on front sprocket seems to aggravate people when among pedestrians (e.g. train platforms)

Ugly:

Chain falls off frequently (what's up with this?? It's dangerous!)
Rotating grip shifter is too easy to shift accidentally, especially when pulling hard on the bars while starting with right pedal


My (brutally honest) suggestions for the Sofrider are:

1) IGH to allow shifting while stopped in preparation for uphill starts, preferably combined with belt drive to eliminate the messy and threatening aspect of the front sprocket
2) Thumb lever shifter to leave a full grip for the right hand that won't fall off
3) Work to lighten up the front triangle as much as possible
4) Cruzbike should design and sell some custom seat back bags

Nice as I'm sure the Vendetta will be, I'd bet that the sales potential of a commuter with IGH and belt drive is much greater. The ROI would certainly be higher, in view of the fairly limited engineering effort involved in creating a fork and boom for belt drive as compared to designing the Vendetta. Even with just the IGH, which is near zero engineering effort, the bike would be much better for commuting.

Obviously it's up to John T. and the Cruzbike crew, but I'm just sayin'...

 

[John Tolhurst]

Many thanks elg for your considered comments

Good:

Very comfortable (when settled into the seat it feels like I should be holding a beer and a TV remote)
Climbs hills well (can really push against seat)
Downhill coasting is very fast and very stable (with up/down pedals and equal foot pressure it's much more solid than just handlebars on a DF)
When sitting up with feet down it's even more stable than a standard bike and equally maneuverable
Fits on transit
Supplied mirror gives good view of road
Suspension handles rough streets very well.

Bad:

Uphill starting is very difficult. If the bike is in too high a gear it can be impossible without getting off and working the pedals by hand to downshift - a procedure that is rather unflattering for both the rider and the bike.
True, getting into the right gear as you come to a stop is important early on, less so with practice
Wobbly and jittery (still new at riding, may get better)
This will fade away completely.
Rear suspension clunks and groans
It should not. Tighten and lube the joints.
Heavy front swings at inopportune times when moving bike around
Wheel by the bars, not bar and seat. For tight turns, try lifting the rear wheel high into the air and pivot around on the front wheel. Its just needs a little different approach.
Seat can get hot and sweaty on back
Especially if you ride with cotton shirts, try our jersey instead, http://www.cruzbike.com/content/cruzbike-jersey
Right handgrip keeps falling off (need compression end plug to hold it)
Yes, that's an annoyance. I went from a cheap hard plastic grip that never moved to a softer one which is easy on the palms, and ended up with this. Another method is to wrap electrical tape on the bar, then push the grip on.
Few good options for racks and bags (I made my own from a child size backpack)
Yes, I want to do a special bag at a cheap price. Till then you'll need to pay for the Topeak system which is high quality and works really well.
Can't ride like a scooter, kicking with one leg to move gently among pedestrians
I find I either pedal very slowly in those situations, I believe you'll find you can to that too as you get more adjusted.
Menacing and oily chain on front sprocket seems to aggravate people when among pedestrians (e.g. train platforms)
One can see how that is true. The best remedy, especially once on the train, is to turn the crank around to the right till its almost underneath the frame. Then things are far more people friendly than other bents can be.

Ugly:

Chain falls off frequently (what's up with this?? It's dangerous!)
It shouldn't be so, did you email us for support to see what adjustments might be needed?
Rotating grip shifter is too easy to shift accidentally, especially when pulling hard on the bars while starting with right pedal
Is that the left shifter? We have a fix which is to reroute the Front Derailleur cable to run the other direction around the roller, before it heads onto the FD itself.


My (brutally honest) suggestions for the Sofrider are:

1) IGH to allow shifting while stopped in preparation for uphill starts, preferably combined with belt drive to eliminate the messy and threatening aspect of the front sprocket
That would be beaut wouldn't it? We are continuing to look at that.
2) Thumb lever shifter to leave a full grip for the right hand that won't fall off
We'll have a retainer clip on later production runs to prevent the grip coming off, or you can revert to a plastic one.
3) Work to lighten up the front triangle as much as possible
This has already been done, but more is possible, especially if we delete the FD by using a SRAM dual drive, which has a 3 speed hub with a 9 speed cassette added to it.
4) Cruzbike should design and sell some custom seat back bags
Yes, agree.

Nice as I'm sure the Vendetta will be, I'd bet that the sales potential of a commuter with IGH and belt drive is much greater. The ROI would certainly be higher, in view of the fairly limited engineering effort involved in creating a fork and boom for belt drive as compared to designing the Vendetta. Even with just the IGH, which is near zero engineering effort, the bike would be much better for commuting.
Well, the purpose of the Vendetta is to expose the potential of the format and create reasons for the word to get around. The IGH hub opens up other design avenues for the front triangle which I would not ignore. I have to try to design each model once and design it right. But I do like the concept of the IGH with belt drive. See my sigma design for my recent IGH design implementation.

 

[elg]

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. I have some followup comments.

>>Right handgrip keeps falling off (need compression end plug to hold it)
>>>>Yes, that's an annoyance. I went from a cheap hard plastic grip that never moved to a softer one which is easy on the palms, and ended up with this. Another method is to wrap electrical tape on the bar, then push the grip on.

The rubber grips are very nice. I'll try some sort of adhesive to fix it in place. It's likely that I'll move to a different grip when I switch to a thumb lever shifter. I really dislike the twist one.

>> Uphill starting is very difficult. If the bike is in too high a gear it can be impossible without getting off and working the pedals by hand to downshift - a procedure that is rather unflattering for both the rider and the bike.
>>>> True, getting into the right gear as you come to a stop is important early on, less so with practice

My troubles with the chain falling off occurs during shifting. This makes it very nerve-wracking to rapidly downshift while approaching a stop. I'd be much happier if I could stop then shift while I wait to go again. An IGH would let me do that, and the limited slack in the chain would completely eliminate the problem of it falling off.

>> Few good options for racks and bags (I made my own from a child size backpack)
>>>> Yes, I want to do a special bag at a cheap price. Till then you'll need to pay for the Topeak system which is high quality and works really well.

I looked at the Topeak and was underwhelmed. It's the best you can do with a regular MT bike, but it doesn't take advantage of the seat geometry on the Cruzbike. I ended up making my own bag from a kid's backpack.

I opened the seam on the back and removed the straps. Then I sewed in a mesh pocket that fits over the seat like this:

I also added an elastic cord that hooks under the seat post tube plus a stripe of reflective tape and an attachment point for a light on the back:

The bag works very well, but it's a bit small. If you made something a bit bigger, perhaps using both a seatpost rack and the seat back for support, then I'd be interested.

>> Chain falls off frequently (what's up with this?? It's dangerous!)
>>>> It shouldn't be so, did you email us for support to see what adjustments might be needed?

Yes, but it still falls off. John Z. has recommended additional measures that I'll try.

>> Rotating grip shifter is too easy to shift accidentally, especially when pulling hard on the bars while starting with right pedal
>>>> Is that the left shifter? We have a fix which is to reroute the Front Derailleur cable to run the other direction around the roller, before it heads onto the FD itself.

No, I have an 8 speed (I hate front derailleurs). I can't imagine what I'd do if I had to deal with two rotating shifters.

 

[John Tolhurst]

elg wrote: No, I have an 8 speed (I hate front derailleurs). I can't imagine what I'd do if I had to deal with two rotating shifters.

Ah, that tells me at least the conditions it comes off, which is coasting. Back pedalling is also a good way to get this happening. What happens is that if there is no tension on the top line of the chain - that is, no pressure on the pedal - and there is a slight bump or disruption then there is nothing to prevent the chain coming off. I know this because my wife experienced the same thing and it took me a long while to diagnose why it came off for her but not me!!

Allowing yourself to pedal as the speed comes down - just lightly obviously - is one approach. But hear what many bike mechanics will tell you, the front derailleur, which you don't have, is there to keep the chain on the front chainring.

I suggest you tension the b-screw, the one that pushes against the rear derailleur hanger, this will keep more tension on the chain at all times.

 

[KenM]

Quote: I do like the concept of the IGH with belt drive.

So do I!
Even better would be adding a Schlumpf Speed-Drive to give the necessary breadth of range as no (affordable) IGHs have adequate range for hilly environments. (You're spoilt in Perth!) In an email Schlumpf hinted that they are working on their own belt drive as well.
I also like the idea of the NuVinci continuously variable hub; they have a new lighter version now.
-Ken
PS The bag looks great! I'd buy it!

 

[Gromit]

KenM wrote:

Quote: I do like the concept of the IGH with belt drive.

So do I!
Even better would be adding a Schlumpf Speed-Drive to give the necessary breadth of range as no (affordable) IGHs have adequate range for hilly environments. (You're spoilt in Perth!) In an email Schlumpf hinted that they are working on their own belt drive as well.
I also like the idea of the NuVinci continuously variable hub; they have a new lighter version now.
-Ken
PS The bag looks great! I'd buy it!

Ken

There is also the Truvativ HammerSchmidt, a similar concept to the Schlumpf but cable operated from the handlebars and therefore avoiding any possible disturbance to steering whilst shifting gear.

 

[JonB]

Gromit wrote:

KenM wrote:
Even better would be adding a Schlumpf Speed-Drive to give the necessary breadth of range as no (affordable) IGHs have adequate range for hilly environments. (You're spoilt in Perth!) In an email Schlumpf hinted that they are working on their own belt drive as well.
I also like the idea of the NuVinci continuously variable hub; they have a new lighter version now.
-Ken
PS The bag looks great! I'd buy it!

Ken

There is also the Truvativ HammerSchmidt, a similar concept to the Schlumpf but cable operated from the handlebars and therefore avoiding any possible disturbance to steering whilst shifting gear.

But the hammerschmidt is only 1:1,6, where you can get schlumpf in 1:2,5 and 2,5:1 (highspeed and mountaind drive+ a 1:1,6 (Speed drive).

There is a 4. option coming up http://www.recumbentjournal.com/news/industry/item/153-trident-trikes-reveals-trident-drive-other-developments.html

 

[KenM]

JonB wrote: But the hammerschmidt is only 1:1,6, where you can get schlumpf in 1:2,5 and 2,5:1 (highspeed and mountaind drive+ a 1:1,6 (Speed drive).

Jon,
While Schlumph does do 2.5 up and down configurations, when paired with a NuVinci, which has a range of 1:3.6, the 1:1.65 of their Mountain drive seems just about right to me. Thus it is very similar to the HammerSchmidt which has the advantage of a hand controller, as does the proposed Trident system.
Now if only I could get all the bits, including belt drive, to work together and have the cash available . . .
-Ken

 

[JonB]

KenM wrote:

JonB wrote: But the hammerschmidt is only 1:1,6, where you can get schlumpf in 1:2,5 and 2,5:1 (highspeed and mountaind drive+ a 1:1,6 (Speed drive).

Jon,
While Schlumph does do 2.5 up and down configurations, when paired with a NuVinci, which has a range of 1:3.6, the 1:1.65 of their Mountain drive seems just about right to me. Thus it is very similar to the HammerSchmidt which has the advantage of a hand controller, as does the proposed Trident system.
Now if only I could get all the bits, including belt drive, to work together and have the cash available . . .
-Ken

Well, if it works for you...

I recently ordered a Mango velomobile, and i considered Schlumpf because i wanted both higher and lower gearing than what i have on my Cruzbike. They did not want to sell me a Schlumpf because it was unknown for them. I made lots of different gearing calculations, but in the end i ended up choosing dualdrive + a compact double, because i did not want to combine a internal gears with internal gears and pay the price of double the inefficiency. Besides in a Mango velomobile, the chaindrive is completely enclosed, so i dont need to worry about dirt.

But if it was on the Cruzbike, i would like an internal gear hub, which i do have now, a Rohloff

 

[Kurt Wever]

I solved the grip migration problem.

When setting up the handlebars at first it seemed natural to rotate the bars so that the ends swept toward the ground and towards me. On uphill stints, then I would be gradually pulling towards myself and the grips seemed to slide off.

I rotated the handlebars so that the grips angle towards the ground and are slightly forward. That way on uphill stints the natural pulling forces slide the grips further on. It is just as comfortable.

Good luck

 

[vonhazza]

Hi elg,
I think John has

Hi elg,

I think John has addressed most of your issues very well, on the subject of starting in an uphill situation was somthing I had problems when I first started riding my Cruz and I would think it would effect all recumbent types unless they have an IGH, is getting used to anticipating when you may need to come to a stop and selecting a gear that you can get started in, it's very easy to change up if the coast is clear but quite frustrating as you know if you get caught in too tall a gear at a dead stop.

With your grips sliding off I use hairspray, the grips will slide on easily and stick when the spray drys, it will still allow you to remove the grips if you wish to.

If you are concerned about impaling someone with your chainrings I have seen a MBB bike with a Chainring protector made out of a frisbe which may be a cheap fix, I think racing recumbents have to have their chainrings covered for safty reasons.