Newbie Questions

Rick Moore

Rick Moore

Member
I bought my V 20 two weeks ago and have put in over 8 hours riding it. I have been reading this forum and have applied the techniques I’ve read here. I can do figure 8’s in the parking lot and am having no trouble doing u turns on the road.

However, where I’m struggling a little is when I am pedaling at speeds over 18 mph. It seems as I am applying power and the boom continues to move from left to right the bike becomes more unstable. The way I compensate is by holding the handlebars tighter and stopping the boom from moving as much.

So my question is this. Am I doing this right, or should I do something different?

Another question. When applying power is there an ideal cadence? On my DF I pedaled at 80-100. On the Cruzbike I’m much more comfortable at 60-80. Anything over that and the bike becomes more unstable.

Thanks
Rick Moore
 
benphyr

benphyr

Guru-me-not
Welcome!
I don't have a V20 but from what I've read and my experience with a conversion kit and a QX100 it sounds like you are learning well and are right on track. It will take a while for your reactions and such to adapt to the new movements of the V20 compared to your previous bike(s). You probably didn't pedal 80-100 rpm on the DF when you were learning it either. At slower cadence you can think through or at least react with all of your normal reactions to stabilize the front end using your arms etc. to counter your legs. At 80-100 rpm you may not be able to do that as well. At much lower cadence you will have difficulty inputting enough power without major steering input.
18mph is still pretty fast. I would suggest staying within your means until your reactions adapt.

Several have suggested that lower bottom bracket is easier to learn on / climb - more horizontal is better for aerodynamics. Many short rides separated by time off the bike are better for learning than one longer ride. Maybe some of the V experts can chime in. Ratz drills are generally considered the best way to learn as fast as possible.

Hope that was helpful. Welcome to the tribe and Excellent Work!
 
Rick Moore

Rick Moore

Member
benphyr said:
Welcome!
I don't have a V20 but from what I've read and my experience with a conversion kit and a QX100 it sounds like you are learning well and are right on track. It will take a while for your reactions and such to adapt to the new movements of the V20 compared to your previous bike(s). You probably didn't pedal 80-100 rpm on the DF when you were learning it either. At slower cadence you can think through or at least react with all of your normal reactions to stabilize the front end using your arms etc. to counter your legs. At 80-100 rpm you may not be able to do that as well. At much lower cadence you will have difficulty inputting enough power without major steering input.
18mph is still pretty fast. I would suggest staying within your means until your reactions adapt.

Several have suggested that lower bottom bracket is easier to learn on / climb - more horizontal is better for aerodynamics. Many short rides separated by time off the bike are better for learning than one longer ride. Maybe some of the V experts can chime in. Ratz drills are generally considered the best way to learn as fast as possible.

Hope that was helpful. Welcome to the tribe and Excellent Work!
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Thanks for the info!
 
telephd

telephd

Guru
Welcome to the tribe Rick. Sounds like you are making good progress. I still practice the slow speed drills and Ive got several thousand miles on many different models. I experienced high-speed wobbles similar to those you are describing and I found it was mostly related to a dominant right leg. By focusing on spinning smooth circles and not mashing on the pedals the wobble subsided but it took around 500 miles or so for it to improve markedly. I also needed to avoid the death grip on the bars as it is actually counter productive and fatiguing. Lead arms at the end of a ride is a sure indication of the death grip. A light touch is where it is at on this end of the boom too. Many of us practice an open palm on the bar with slight pressure to correct the pedal steer. Ive always been a spinner so getting my cadence up around 90rpm was pretty natural for me. Again smooth circles instead on alternate hard pressure on the pedals (mashing) is the ticket.
 
chicorider

chicorider

Zen MBB Master
About three years ago I pulled a tendon in my right forearm on my V (what is commonly called "tennis elbow") by trying to use my arms to counteract pedal-steer, pretty much just as you describe above. My injury made it so that I couldn't even turn a doorknob, and it took seven months and a lot of therapy to heal. In that time I asked for advice here. Much of what came focused on my feet--on spinning rather than mashing, which was good advice, for sure. But the one piece of wisdom that helped me the most came from Robert H. He said, "grip the handlebars as if they were ripe bananas." When I focused on that much lighter grip, it forced my legs to spin more smoothly as a secondary effect just so that I wouldn't wobble. My overall form straightened out almost immediately as my whole body relaxed, my arms and legs working together now, rather than fighting each other. My deathgrip, which I had figured was just part of the V experience, was causing much of the trouble, but once I relaxed that, I felt much more at ease--one with the bike. My feet even became productively involved in steering, which really opened things up in terms of handling the bike. Now I can ride a painted line all day at 23-24 mph, totally relaxed, or I can swerve at speed to miss obstacles--potholes, rocks, car doors, squirrels--that appear suddenly. I use my arms to pull the bars for sprints and steep inclines, but otherwise they are loose on the bars.

I had to injure myself to figure all this out. Hopefully you can avoid that step. Keep going; the bike is a pure joy to ride.
 
Rick Moore

Rick Moore

Member
Thanks everyone for the advice! While I don’t have the death grip, I definitely could hold the bars lighter and spin more and mash less. I’ve probaly got about 150 miles (10 hours) on the bike so will be patient as it sounds like it takes 500-1000 miles to really get comfortable.
 
BentSk8r

BentSk8r

Member
All bicycles wobble. Though with different amplitudes and frequencies. The V front end has a particularly large moment of inertia plus wheel flop which gives this instability a very different character from what we are used to from either DF's or rear wheel drive recumbents. Steering inputs from pedaling or just normal instability can make it veer determinedly and, especially at low speed combined with the usual reaction of leaning into the turn, want to go into a "death spiral". That can be corrected by learning to lean out i.e. "snowmobile turn" or drop the outside shoulder or lean your head out of the turn or pressure the outside edge of the seat.

This tendency to "veer determinedly" feels very scary when learning to ride the V leading to the unproductive death grip. What I have learned is that, at speed, the veer will often self correct if given a little time and requiring almost no steering input. This is analogous to giving a horse "its head" and letting it figure out how to place its own feet to get from here to there. However, there are some wobbles that threaten to increase in amplitude requiring input and that, on the V, these inputs need to be quick and strong but of very limited duration to avoid overshooting in the opposite direction. Conscious calculation is too slow but thankfully, the unconscious brain figures it out eventually. So I give Freya her head most of the time and we are all happier.
 
B

bladderhead

Zen MBB Master
I realised I was consistently falling inwards. So I started forcing myself to enter turns feeling as if I was about to fall outwards. It worked. A week later I fell off my Grasshopper. These days I can switch from one to the other without a problem.
 
paco1961

paco1961

Zen MBB Master
But in the end there’s nothing that replaces pure repetition. Hopped on my first bent (Giro 20) in March of this year. Bought and built up the S40 a couple weeks later. By June was riding comfortably at low speed but wondering if I’d ever hit that same speed and sense of freedom I knew on DFs. Now it’s late Nov and I’m feeling great on the CB at speeds just about equal to my DF days. Still just need to open full throttle on long and steep descents. It just takes time. But it comes in time.
 
Rick Moore

Rick Moore

Member
paco1961 said:
But in the end there’s nothing that replaces pure repetition. Hopped on my first bent (Giro 20) in March of this year. Bought and built up the S40 a couple weeks later. By June was riding comfortably at low speed but wondering if I’d ever hit that same speed and sense of freedom I knew on DFs. Now it’s late Nov and I’m feeling great on the CB at speeds just about equal to my DF days. Still just need to open full throttle on long and steep descents. It just takes time. But it comes in time.
Click to expand...
You are right. Every time I ride I get a little more comfortable.
 
Rick Moore

Rick Moore

Member
bladderhead said:
Brain s are adaptable at any age. You are learning to ride a bike. That is like learning to ride a bike.
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True, our brains are adaptable at any age. However, it’s also true that older brains do not adapt as quickly as younger brains. I learned to ride a bike at 5 years old. Not to state my age, but I’ve been riding a DF for over 50 years. Due to the front wheel drive, and the laid back riding position on the V-20, for me it’s like learning to ride all over again. Like I said, it’s getting easier every time I ride it. :)
 
McWheels

McWheels

Off the long run
Yes completely, it's learning to ride a bike again. Once you accept that, and that the consequences of your choices, then the journey becomes something you can enjoy. As well as the journey.
 
Tuloose

Tuloose

Guru
chicorider said:
But the one piece of wisdom that helped me the most came from Robert H. He said, "grip the handlebars as if they were ripe bananas."
Click to expand...

That's interesting chicorider. Robert Holler told me to treat the handlebars as if one were doing isometric exercises although I can see how these two pieces of advice can be complimentary though I would substitute green bananas for ripe ones :)
I took it to mean to have a firm but not overly tight grip while maintaining a certain stiffness in the forearms to counteract the pedal steer.
Anyway, it sounds like the OP is doing fine and just needs more miles on the V to get acclimated to it's handling quirks.
I had no problem adapting to the Vendetta but I cut my teeth on a laid back Silvio 2.0 for a couple years before purchasing the V.
Disclaimer: I spent the first couple of months on the Silvio, my first Cruzbike ever, with the fear of wobbles and a death grip on the bars.
It can be a tough learning curve at first but there is a huge joyful payoff for sticking it out.
 
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