Nohands riding and starting.

[Balor]

First is surely possible, I've seen videos, but I'd like some tips. I have my prototype ready but lacking bars, so I thought I could get away without them .
SEcond, however (and climbing) is likely trickier if possible at all, but I have negative wheel flop like on a python - maybe it would prove doable?

 

[CruzLike]

Looking at your time stamp, I think you should go back to bed and finish your dream.

The one time I tried no hands, I was unsuccessful. It is a skill I could probably practice and accomplish. Climbing on the other hand I will leave to stuntmen types in the tribe. I'm too old to fall repeatedly.

 

[DavidCH]

Elastic spring loaded stabilizer attached to the front forks would help. With the right camera angle no one would know otherwise. Can't say I have tried it. It's easier to do with normal chainrings than oval

 

[ratz]

First is surely possible, I've seen videos, but I'd like some tips. I have my prototype ready but lacking bars, so I thought I could get away without them .
SEcond, however (and climbing) is likely trickier if possible at all, but I have negative wheel flop like on a python - maybe it would prove doable?

Since you have a QX start practicing on that.

Tips:

1) Do it coasting at first.
2) grab the handlebar riser with your knees to help stabilize the nose when first learning.
3) Go "dead leg" let them just hang there that dampens the front end
4) Work on slow putting your arms down by your hips; not out.
5) steer by leaning not with your feet.
6) once you can do it coasting practice and in peddling which will give you the ability to steer with your feet.

If you practice 3-4 minutes at the start and end of every ride; you'll have it down in about 20 rides., it's definitely "a lot of little" type learning curve.

For no handed, the behind the head trick you see Jim Parker do is the easiest for sustained peddling. Seriously it's weirdly easier I was shocked when I first tried it. Arms down at hips is second easiest, and arms straight out wide is the hardest.

 

[Rampa]

Behind the head must be the "broom handle" effect.

 

[Bill K]

For inspiration, watch this video of @ak-tux (about 6-minutes into the video).
He makes it look easy.

http://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/ride-video-my-weekend-outing.11613/#post-134728

 

[Balor]

Elastic spring loaded stabilizer attached to the front forks would help. With the right camera angle no one would know otherwise. Can't say I have tried it. It's easier to do with normal chainrings than oval

Actually, I have self-stabilised front end by itself, see my thread in "innovators" section, by means of negative steering angle and positive trail - it results in a negative wheel flop (basically front end is self-stable).
Due to very short boom pedal feedback is quite manegeable even with this angle, but it require a remote control to reach the bars when lying down - something I've not managed to do adequately yet - hence this thread.

 

[Balor]

Since you have a QX start practicing on that.

Actually I have a diy mbb with mega-floppy front triangle and this:

BUt otherwise good advise where applicable, thanks!

 

[ak-tux]

...
Tips:

1) Do it coasting at first.
2) grab the handlebar riser with your knees to help stabilize the nose when first learning.
3) Go "dead leg" let them just hang there that dampens the front end
4) Work on slow putting your arms down by your hips; not out.
5) steer by leaning not with your feet.
6) once you can do it coasting practice and in peddling which will give you the ability to steer with your feet.

If you practice 3-4 minutes at the start and end of every ride; you'll have it down in about 20 rides., it's definitely "a lot of little" type learning curve.
...

+1
.. and I might add, use pedals with cleats or toe clips. They make it a lot easier.

You don't need to add anything to your bike to achieve this. This cruzbike design (aka MBB FWD) is inherently pedal steered. In fact, when first learning to ride it, you are basically countering(and fighting) the pedal steer with your hands. But then later, the same effect can be put to good use, with practice off course. This is one of the sweetest joys of an MBB format. I can peel a banana, open a chocolate pack and even (don't do this on the highway) start my gps app on the smartphone on the go, e.t.c.

Warning: Don't over indulge or you might go to sleep, on the ride .. ha ha ha!

 

[billyk]

This is one of the sweetest joys of an MBB format. I can peel a banana, open a chocolate pack and even (don't do this on the highway) start my gps app on the smartphone on the go, e.t.c.

... eat my lunch, take photos, post them to Facebook, reply to comments on this forum ...
Not quite, but once you get this, it's super easy, much easier than on a DF, especially for more than short distances. Then you feel like you "own" the bike.

I found it easier to learn on a slight uphill. The need to keep constant pressure on the pedals gave me more control. Even now, with 100s of no-hands miles, I'm more comfortable pedaling no-hands than coasting.

On the other hand, your no-hands power is much less, proving that these bikes engage the whole body.

BK

 

[Balor]

On the other hand, your no-hands power is much less, proving that these bikes engage the whole body.

Of course, it but it does not mean that that arm power is added, not simply 'used up'
Going 'dead leg' is a very helpful hint in many respects, btw. It means you mainly shift pedal vectors from forward (that causes pedal steer) to mainly downward (it does not, because it is parallel to steering axis), by using leg biceps and weight of your own legs to pull pedals downward.
But I don't think that starting w/o legs is viable - it require way too much torque.

 

[Bentas]

Gotta love this guy

 

[billyk]

Of course, it but it does not mean that that arm power is added, not simply 'used up'
Going 'dead leg' is a very helpful hint in many respects, btw. It means you mainly shift pedal vectors from forward (that causes pedal steer) to mainly downward (it does not, because it is parallel to steering axis), by using leg biceps and weight of your own legs to pull pedals downward.

Not sure I understood the first sentence, with those 2 negatives.

I don't use "dead leg" when riding no-hands, but push the pedals outward slightly on each stroke to cancel pedal steer. I can tell because my back rolls slightly side to side, using friction against the seatback (and the pedals) to gain sideways push.

That is pure power loss contributing nothing to forward motion ... but it's fun!

 

[tiltmaniac]

Not sure I understood the first sentence, with those 2 negatives.

I don't use "dead leg" when riding no-hands, but push the pedals outward slightly on each stroke to cancel pedal steer. I can tell because my back rolls slightly side to side, using friction against the seatback (and the pedals) to gain sideways push.

That is pure power loss contributing nothing to forward motion ... but it's fun!

It is only power loss if the motion is causing inelastic deformation...

 

[DavidCH]

Gotta love this guy

Haaaa we will have to redo that video on the T50.

I can't see anyone quite there yet on the V20.

 

[billyk]

It is only power loss if the motion is causing inelastic deformation...

I don't think I agree. You're referring to power being used to bend the frame or bars, then not getting it back via rebound, right? That would certainly be power loss.

But that's not what I meant. Maybe "power wasted" would be more accurate for the situation of using sideways friction (of feet against pedals, and back against seat) for effort that contributes nothing to forward motion. That is effectively a loss: I'm doing work that does not move me forward.

Suppose I did some extraneous work while riding? Say, pushed inward on the bar ends or tightly squeezed the grips? I would be wasting power. I call that a loss if it was necessary to no-hands riding.

Or am I missing the point?

 

[tiltmaniac]

Much of this is difficult to quantify, as the human body is a fabulously complex physical system (lots of bones, tendons, etc. not just "actuators" (muscles)).
Anyway, you can be pushing muscle against muscle and not be wasting power-- it may simply be increasing leverage, and thus increase power *output
As an example, when I use my upper torso while using my legs, I'm outputting more power, though I may have an *efficiency* loss.
Power != efficiency (a puny little 4 stroke engine will be more efficient than a turbo V12, but it will be unlikely to have the same power)

Thus the 'inelastic deformation' (i.e. bending) may cause power loss (not to mention efficiency loss)

Blah blah physics!

edit: said "power loss" when meant "power output" (starred)

 

[Balor]

EXactly, hence I'm still unsure the extend of power savings (if any) very stiff frames entail.
WHat is absolutely ineffective, is to brace against your own tissues. They are viscoelastic with aboot 30% mechanical loss factor.

 

[quickbeam]

Wow. I am nowhere near that type of riding. I was feeling like I could handle the bike pretty good, but then I had a nasty crash a few weeks ago. I was signaling with one hand for a left-hand turn, started the turn (I was probably going a bit fast for the turn), and the front end started to shake and wobble. I remembering thinking, "this isn't good". Next thing I know I'm on the ground. I was a bit woozy, a driver saw me go down and stopped to help me. No blood, so that was good. A couple scratches, and my helmet was cracked, so I did hit my head. My bike had no scratches, I couldn't even tell which side I went down on. Dusted myself off, had a drink of water, and was able to ride back home, but my confidence has been shaken.

Now I make sure to use both hands and go into any good turn nice and slow. It will take a while to get back to testing anything like riding no-handed. I'm still not sure what caused the sudden front-end wobble, but going one-handed on a curve and going kinda fast definitely contributed. I have a V2K (Sofrider), but I think the angle of the forks and such is the same for all modern Cruzbikes.

 

[tiltmaniac]

When I was test riding, the Silvio/Vendetta family felt more stable (for me) than the Softrider.

This obviously depends on body type, etc. Since weight distribution is in play when determining resonance (i.e. wobble), keep in mind that changing seating position changes the dynamics (as does changing the boom length, etc).