Original wheelset vs Carbon wheelset

[The Brook]

I don't know if this question has been asked before, but how good is the original wheelset versus a high end carbon wheelset like a Zipp 303 firecrest?

Thanks,
Denis

 

[chicorider]

After a bike's frame and fork, wheels (and tires) perhaps have the second highest impact on how a bike rides and performs. But it also depends on what the rider wants and values. Cruzbike's stock wheels are good, get-the-job-done hoops. Lower in cost, durable, and comparatively heavy. For many riders, they're just fine. They are also a smart choice for a smaller company like Cruzbike, to help them keep costs down while still offering at least decent performance. They could offer ala carte wheel upgrades, but that would drive up the cost of what is already a somewhat expensive bike, and CB would have to deal with the overhead of extra wheelsets.

If you value speed, performance, and ride quality, you put in a lot of miles, including climbs, and like to compete with the faster DF riders, upgrading to something like the Firecrests and higher-end road tires makes sense and would be money well spent. You will most likely notice the difference, perhaps by a lot. If you're more into taking in the sights at a leisurely pace, and maybe carrying small loads from time to time, the stock wheels with the right tires for how you ride should serve you well, with minimal fuss.

 

[vosadrian]

For a V20, you are really leaving a lot of average speed on the table with the stock wheels. On a very aero bike/rider setup, the wheels make a higher percentage of the total overall drag, so you can may high percentage changes to drag going from shallow depth wheels to deeper wheels. I personally thing the weight is not as much of an issue on the V20 and the aero drag is what you are after. I have 90mm wheels on my V20 (not light). I went through a couple of stages but picked up about 1-2kph going from 50mm to 90mm, and probably another 2-3kph from stock wheels to 50mm (with better tyres also).

So if speed is the goal... then deep carbon wheels are probably the best upgrade you can do.

 

[chicorider]

So if speed is the goal... then deep carbon wheels are probably the best upgrade you can do.

Agreed. I build my own wheels, and chose to run 50mm carbon rims on my V20c. I also agree that a deeper rim will yield slightly higher speeds on these bikes, and that wheel weight is not the first priority. My only "yeah, but" for anyone thinking about such an upgrade is this: I weigh only 130lbs/59kg, and I live in an area that sometimes has pretty good crosswinds, including on some descents. Catching a stiff sideways gust at speed on a V can be a butt-puckering experience, and the deeper the rim, the stronger the sidewind might feel. I have heard that heavier riders tend to be less affected, while lighter riders get tossed around more easily, which makes sense. I would have liked to go deeper, but felt that 50mm was a good middle ground, given my weight and local conditions.

 

[vosadrian]

Totally agree. I am about 70kg and I have ridden my setup in strong winds and you get blown around a lot. Not more than I can handle, but on a strong/gusty day it can have you wondering if you should have gone out. But for the rest (99%) of the time the speed improvements are noticable and appreciated. Of course if you are not too fussed about the speed, I would not recommend very deep wheels because of the compromises. But the V20 is all about speed right? Otherwise you would choose a different option in the lineup.

 

[chicorider]

Absolutely. Anyone planning to buy a V should also be planning to ride it fast. A few strategic upgrades, such as wheels, make sense.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I don't know anything at all about the wheels that come with any of the CB models, but deep wheels can add quite a bit of free speed. At a bit over 80kg my 60mm deep wheels are a dream in all of my rides on the flats except one 100m segment that is a severe crosswind doing all I can to not get knocked over. I am not doing any timed segments that include any significant climbing so I would just keep those heavier wheels on because at a total weight of about 100kg including the bike that extra 200g of wheel weight isn't going to make a difference on the climbs anyway.

If Mavic asked me for my perfect wheel I would tell them to make the CXR80 a hooked tubeless ready 28mm wide aluminum hoop and rim bed (to remove the need for rim tape) with Exalith braking surface, 80mm carbon fiber fairing bonded to the rim, and run a 25mm Conti GP TL tire (105%). It would look something like this...

but with the Exalith brake track like this...

 

[chicorider]

If Mavic asked me for my perfect wheel I would tell them to make the CXR80 a hooked tubeless ready 28mm wide aluminum hoop and rim bed (to remove the need for rim tape) with Exalith braking surface, 80mm carbon fiber fairing bonded to the rim, and run a 25mm Conti GP TL tire (105%). It would look something like this...

I mentioned earlier that I build my own wheels. I source my rims from Light Bicycle, and one of the several reasons I like them is that they will make you a rim without spoke holes in the rim bed (and with or without a brake track). The lack of spoke holes adds a little bit to the building process, but I sure don't miss rim tape. It does take about seven weeks for the rims to arrive because they are a custom order (only a $10 upcharge), so there is a wait. I took the picture a bit ago to show my brother how much wider today's road rims are compared to the early 90s.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I mentioned earlier that I build my own wheels. I source my rims from Light Bicycle, and one of the several reasons I like them is that they will make you a rim without spoke holes in the rim bed (and with or without a brake track). The lack of spoke holes adds a little bit to the building process, but I sure don't miss rim tape. It does take about seven weeks for the rims to arrive because they are a custom order (only a $10 upcharge), so there is a wait. I took the picture a bit ago to show my brother how much wider today's road rims are compared to the early 90s.

That looks really nice braddah! I will have to check them out. Just thinking out loud but I wonder if they would take a Mavic wheel with Exalith brake tracks and bond CF to it in the desired depth.

 

[chicorider]

An interesting idea. I kind of doubt that LB would do that, but I imagine you could find a carbon fiber craftsman who would.

 

[melaci288]

I don't know if this question has been asked before, but how good is the original wheelset versus a high end carbon wheelset like a Zipp 303 firecrest?

Thanks,
Denis

The jump to a high-end carbon set like the 303 Firecrests is usually pretty noticeable, especially in how the bike handles and accelerates.

 

[Duncanleon]

I mentioned earlier that I build my own wheels. I source my rims from Light Bicycle, and one of the several reasons I like them is that they will make you a rim without spoke holes in the rim bed (and with or without a brake track). The lack of spoke holes adds a little bit to the building process, but I sure don't miss rim tape. It does take about seven weeks for the rims to arrive because they are a custom order (only a $10 upcharge), so there is a wait. I took the picture a bit ago to show my brother how much wider today's road rims are compared to the early 90s.

Is there a loss of strength by converting to a clincher carbon wheel from Metal? I ask this due to the propensity for striking gravel on road shoulders at speed that on a normal road bike would be a simple Jump, but on a V20 would be a virtual head-on collision. on a Metal wheel, there may be a distended nick but a ride home is still possible at reduced speeds. What are the chances for destroying the carbon wheel?

 

[IyhelM]

Is there a loss of strength?

Depends a lot on the carbon rim manufacturer. Carbon wheels, whatever the overall quality, usually bring lightweight and better efficiency due to increased stiffness.
Cheap carbon rims are fragile, high end ones can be tougher than aluminium - but usually not so light. I reckon we are reaching a point where price does reflect the quality of carbon rims - which was not the case 5y ago, much more random.
Now looking at your specified scenario, I don’t think modern carbon rims are prone to catastrophic failure even when crashing, unless you built extra-extra-light wheels.

 

[vosadrian]

I once was riding my V20 at high speed at night (lesson learned!!) and hit a large rock (brick sized) head on with both (deep carbon) wheels. I came off the bike and got some gravel rash down one side (arm, thigh). My front wheel was damaged and needed to be replaced (back was OK), but that did not cause the accident. The accident was caused by sudden deflation (bad tyre cut) meaning I was doing high speed on the rim with no grip to counter-steer falling to one side. I was actually able to fit a tube (with a tyre patch boot) and ride the damaged wheel home. I replaced the rim and still use the wheelset.

I would estimate if I hit the same rock with aluminium, the rim also would have been badly damaged with the same result. I don't think there is any net loss in support for this scenario with Carbon wheels.... they just cost more to repair!

I nolonger ride high speed poorly lit roads at night. I was not expecting some ute to have dropped a large piece of debris but now I do.

 

[chicorider]

I build my own wheels, and when I built up my first V20 ten years ago, I was still using aluminum rims. I learned pretty quickly that these bikes, and perhaps the V in particular, can be tough on wheels because you can't unweight or hop like you can on a DF bike. The front wheel seems to have it hardest. I dented three aluminum rims on the front early on by hitting uneven joints at speed (I've become a better pilot since then). From there I had Pro Wheel Builders build me a set of carbon wheels using NOX rims (I was afraid of somehow messing up an expensive carbon rim while building the wheel myself). I rode those wheels for six years and never had to touch them once. Whenever I put new tires on, I will sometimes pop the wheel on the stand to see if it needs any truing. These wheels stayed true and round the whole time, and the ride quality was much better than any aluminum rim I had ever used. Very much worth the cost of the upgrade, even if I had to learn the hard way.

Now I build with Light Bicycle carbon rims. They aren't super cheap, nor are they super expensive. They ride great, are customizable, and have taken the V's abuse without complaint or loss of trueness. And, it turns out, they are easier to build with than aluminum rims.

 

[Frito Bandito]

Chico, the hubs on both of my Mavic CXR60C clinchers are still good for now, but I come across a set of Chris King hubs on a local website from time to time, and was wondering if it is possible to swap them out. They are almost silent when free wheeling, and I'm guessing that if it is possible to swap them then I'd almost never have to touch them.

Here is Mavic's website for the front and wheel hub specs...

Technical Manual : welcome

I contacted Chris King and right off the bat they said "no", but I don't know if anyone else makes spokes that would work. Do you have a moment to check if anyone makes spokes in the lengths required, even if they need to be shortened individually?

 

[chicorider]

Hey Frito Bandito. I don't see why such a swap wouldn't work. You'll probably need new spokes, but those are readily available in whatever length you need (The guy I use often cuts and threads "blanks" to the lengths I want). Your current hubs use straight pull spokes. Chris Kings come in both straight pull and J-bend models. Both types work well; you just want to make sure that you get the spoke type that fits the hub interface. My main concern would be the spoke nipples. I'm guessing that these are proprietary to this rim, on a wheel system that is old enough that finding replacements can either be difficult or expensive, due to low available stock. I found an eBay seller asking $10.00 for three nipples for Cosmic wheels. It looks like your wheels have 20 spokes per wheel, making new nipples come to about $135.00, if you can find 40 of them. When I rebuild a wheel, I usually use new nipples because they are tiny parts that handle heavy stresses. Once new ones are seated and tensioned, they often hold up for the long haul, but when used nipples are unseated and reused, the new seating can compound the old stresses by adding new stresses, which can lead to failure. It does look like your current nipples are brass, instead of aluminum, so they could more likely handle reuse. Aluminum, not so much. Setting that aside, the rest is a fairly simple matter of getting some needed hub measurements, which many manufacturers offer on their websites, and a rim measurement called ERD (Effective Rim Diameter). You would most likely stick with the same cross pattern that you currently have: radial (no crosses) on the front, and 2-cross on the rear drive side and radial on the rear non-drive side. For J-bend spokes, enter those numbers into an online spoke length calculator for the left and right sides and it will give you the lengths you need. For straight pull, there is an added measurement called "offset" that you will need, also usually supplied by the hub manufacturer. You'll want to make sure that you're using a spoke length calculator designed for straight pull spokes. Or you could let me know what hub model you are looking at and I can crunch the numbers and give you the spoke lengths. The only funky measurement would be the ERD. I couldn't find such a measurement online, so we would have to measure that by hand and hope we are right. Not a big deal, except it looks like the spokes mount part-way up the rim's sidewall, rather than at the center. Do-able, but unusual.

 

[Frito Bandito]

Thanks a ton Chico, I really appreciate it. When the next CK hub appears on that website I'll grab the specs off it as well as the other stuff. There are currently some available on that website but 2 are 142mm.

1 is a Silver R45 100/130mm QR 20H/24H for ¥38,000


Another is a ISO DISC 142×12mm Thru 32H in maroon with a SRAM hub for ¥20,000


ISO DISC 142×12mm Thru 32H in purple for ¥20,000



Finally a Pewter Classic Hub 100/130mm QR shimano 32H/32H(F/R) for ¥40,000


I am hoping for one with a SRAM hub so I can use a 10-28 cassette. The number of spoke holes is different, so I might have to just buy one from CK direct. If the spoke nipples are brass then I wouldn't have any qualms about using them again.