Pedal assist on 2012 Silvio - Help please

Elaine

New Member
Has anyone done this?

Live in a super hilly area (5-10% grades) and want to add a pedal assist to my Silvio. I don't know if it's best to add it to front or rear wheel (because when I could ride up steeper hills, the front wheel would spin or lift off the road).

Also want to be able to ride 50-75 miles so need battery to support that.

Thank you!
 

dtseng

Well-Known Member
Of course, a rear hub motor would be your choice, and better still, trying to find the unit which will re-charge the battery on down hill run.
 

Elaine

New Member
Of course, a rear hub motor would be your choice, and better still, trying to find the unit which will re-charge the battery on down hill run.

I just want to ride the bike, I don't really want to understand that much technically. I've ridden since 1983 a lot...but never wanted to understand a bike technically. Just want to ride it and be able to do minor stuff -- change tires, and the like....

So I don't understand...if the bike is already too light in front and the wheel comes off the ground/spins on steep hills...HOW will putting a lot of weight on the back not make that even worse?

And YES! Be awesome if it could recharge on downhills!
 

mzweili

Guru
HOW will putting a lot of weight on the back not make that even worse?
The rather expensive German units from velogical weigh less than 3 pounds, and they could be mounted on the front or back wheel.
For riding uphill it would be preferable to have the motor assist on the rear wheel
 

Elaine

New Member
FYI -- Omni-wheel only does their own electric bikes...they won't make a conversion kit. Thank you for your help.
Very frustrated.
 

Elaine

New Member
But the weight of the motor? That has to be more than 3 lbs to last for 60-75 miles, no?
Thank you!
 

mzweili

Guru
Back in 2014 Alex Stegemann confirmed that the Omni Wheel is a good fit for the Silvio (see my first post).
The Velogical unit consists of two small rim motors. Have a look at their website.
Whatever motor assist you chose, the batteries will be heavier than the motor.
 

bladderhead

Zen MBB Master
When you ride, you are applying turning force to the front wheel. Put a motor there and you apply even more turning force there. The purpose of a motor is to allow you to go along without pedalling hard. Put the motor at the back, and when you pedal less hard there is less turning force at the front.
 

Elaine

New Member
At your suggestion, I went to their website and called Evelo about Omni wheel. They said they are in Seattle and ONLY make their own bikes and will not provide conversion parts or kits. And had no suggestions for me.
 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
I think that with a very hilly area you live in, then a bottom Bracket motor that replaces the front crank and chainring is the best option as it can use the 10 gears of the driven front wheel cassette, so you have a 10 speed Electric Bike, instead of a single speed hub motor Electric bike,that the motor is only efficient(81%) at a narrow speed range of 30 to 34 kph for a 700C wheel!

I had a direct drive Golden Motor Magic Pie 3 500 watt 20" (406) rear wheel(7.5 kg) with a 36V 10Ahr battery, with the controller built into the motor so very tidy wiring, on a trike, then a Cruzbike Softrider V1, and it was great on flat roads up to 2% grade and had a 30 km range sitting on 20 kph (max efficiency of 81% at , but as soon as I went up a 3 to 5% grade of less than 1 km, then the range reduced to 15 km.
I fitted a motor current and voltage monitor, and the current went through the roof over 2% grade, OR when taking off from stationary, under electric assistance!

Smart Pie 3 500W wheel.JPG

The direct drive hub claimed to recharge the battery on descents, but with the current meter, it was only 10% efficient, AND if you flattened the battery due to riding up any hills, the ride home was REALLY hard work as there was at least a 20 to 30 watts extra load to turn the motor! This is where a freewheeling geared hub drive OR Bottom bracket mid drive motor is better!
I looked at the geared hub motor, but with an External controller, the wiring was very messy and not watertight.

I recommend the Banfang BBS-001 36V 500w 25 amp built in controller Mid-drive kit, with Colour display, brake cable switch and thumb speed control($584 from California Ebike, $695 E-Bikes San Francisco, )
https://california-ebike.com/shop/bafang-8fun-bbs0102-mid-drive-bundle/

The 36V 500 w motor kit is $584, but with a max efficiency speed of 78 rpm (82% effic.) (243 W), max power 67 rpm (72%) (510w), Max Torque 54 rpm (68%) (470 w)
The 48V 750 w motor kit is $584, but with a max efficiency speed of 106 rpm (85% effic.) (470W), max power 90 rpm (76%) (930w), Max Torque 65 rpm (70%) (820 w)
It is easier to pedal between 67 and 80 rpm, than 90 and 106 rpm, with 175 mm long cranks!

With a 36V 14 Ahr (504Watt.hr) battery with on/off/locked keyed switch, and a 2 amp charger ($429 if bought separately, ($354 if bought with motor)
https://california-ebike.com/product-category/batteries/

IMG_6288.jpg IMG_6283.jpg

The battery (362 mm long) will just fit upside down under the Silvio V1.5 frame between the front and rear wheels,where the frame bag is!
IMG_0774_50.jpg

Also recommended is the gear sensor ($50), that cuts power for 0.5 sec when it senses a gear cable movement, so you don't have up to 500 w power during a gear change!
AND a smaller (36T) and lighter Leikke Thick/Thin tooth chainring, than the std. steel 44T, ($80), so a top speed of 32 Kph (20 MPH) @ 80 RPM crank using the 11T cassette sprocket, and 10 Kph (6.2 MPH) @ 80 RPM crank using the 36T cassette sprocket .
AND a hidden brake cable switch for a brifter brake ($20)

Total component prise of $1088.

The Bafang mid drive comes standard with 3 levels of pedal assist, but California E bike, can reprogram it to 9 levels from 20 watts up to 300 watts, so while pedalling the accurate level of assistance is maintained, and stops when you stop pedalling, so you do not need to keep your thumb on the throttle, ALL the time that you need assistance!
The throttle will give 50% max assistance when ever it is activated!

Contact California E bike, for an Electric Bike Dealer near you, to install the kit!
 

crazy_ebot

Active Member
Just to clarify: the photos of the orange cruzbike quest are mine, not Supers. Also, the details he referenced are incorrect: those image depict a a 48v torque-based engine, not a 36v cadence-based drive. That said, the size,shape, and placement of the drive are comparable.

Elaine - I've done some tinkering recently with a Cruzbike quest (v2). You can see the full thread here:
https://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/electric-conversion-to-a-quest-451.12191/

I began with a test, using a rear wheel hub motor, but I've replaced that with a torque-based mid-drive at the front. Most recently, I've moved the battery onto the front post.

quick comparison:
Rear hub motor makes it easy to just sit back and fly using the throttle. It's really fun and easy to use, but you might find you pedal less, so exercise less. Also, having your hand permanently twisting the thumb throttle can cause wrist pain over a few years (it did for me). Rear hub is definitely more powerful though.

Mid-drive at the front feels less poweful (for the same specs), but provides better pedal-assistance (i.e. you will still be pedaling, and it feels better). Further, my torque based drive feels nicer to use than cadence based system (in my opinion), because it responds to force exerted on the pedals. Having the weight of the motor and battery upfront actually feels pretty good - makes the bike balance more like a motorcycle, but it does make the steering heavier. I've had the battery behind the seat also, 'works fine.

However, with regards to your Silvio, my gut says the more laid back seat/balance would be more negatively affected by my setup. Instead, I'd recommend a mid-drive with the battery below the seat, for the best distribution of weight. It seems like a crime not to use a mid-drive, for a bike where pedaling is so much fun. : )
 
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