Please talk me out of a V20 and into an S40

[poq]

Hey all, I've decided I'm ready to ditch my DF because of numbness and neck pain on rides longer than about an hour. I've been riding a "gravel" bike for the past five years, and I've enjoyed the flexibility to run 35mm tires, with or without fenders and a rack. I use the fenders when the standing water on the bike paths takes days to dry out, and ditch 'em during the pleasant summer weather to be faster.

I know the S40 is the natural choice to replace that bike, as it can also easily run wide tires, fenders, and racks. However, I am absolutely addicted to speed. Half of my discomfort is from holding a tuck for longer than my body can really tolerate to gain an extra MPH or two.

I want to use a Cruzbike for my new commute, which is 19.5 miles each way and almost all off-street paths. I can fit what I need into a scarab bag. My main concern is riding when the weather isn't perfect. I mostly ride after rain and not during rain, but the post-rain road grit is intolerable on the DF bike without fenders. It looks like the V20c doesn't have fender mounts at all. Have people come up with other solutions? Or should I just let go of that last 15% of aero efficiency and enjoy an S40?

Thanks for any and all thoughts!

 

[poq]

Well, I just found Robertas' post where he's running fenders on his V20c. So that's definitely possible, although only with very narrow tubed tires.

Any other factors I'm not considering when thinking of commuting on a V20c?

 

[Always-Learnin]

Prepare to be inundated with subjective opinions. I own both bikes. There’s really only about a 2 to 4 mph difference in speed between the two. Given your specific commuting situation. I would recommend the S40 because I think it would better suit that. One positive to keep in mind is that should you get the S40 and then decide that you need more speed, you can always sell it here in the Cruzbike forum. Cruzbikes retain much of their market value and always sell. Another positive is the fact that you would have gained valuable experience on the S40 that will transfer directly over to the V20c. Also, any extras you add to the S40, will most likely transfer over to the V20c. That is my subjective opinion. But frankly, you can’t go wrong with either bike.

 

[poq]

Bring 'em on! I want to hear anything from anyone who's riding lots of miles in all kinds of weather on a V20.

 

[CruzRider]

Unless your route is smooth pavement, get a Q45. When I started riding Cruzbikes (S,V,T), I was surprised as to how much of a beating the back took even on bumps that I did not notice on a DF.

With a small bit of work, You can make the Q as aero as you need it to be.

I still ride my V and S, but I keep reaching for the Q on anything but the smoothest routes.

 

[chicorider]

I hate to admit this, but I am a fair weather rider. And during my years of commuting by bike, I would drive on rainy days. So when I say that the V20 (now V20c) is the best bike I've ever owned over my 38 years or riding, and that if I had to narrow my five-bike stable down to one, God forbid, the V would win, I say that as one who will be inside on a trainer on rainy days. I also say all this from mostly sunny Northern California, where winters are mild and rainy days are tolerably few. I have many, many great ride days over the span of a year where I live, so I can afford to be picky (and wimpy).

But from what you've said and described, the S40 might be the better choice. I did own an S40 for a couple years, and it really was a flexible, do-it-all bike. And if I rode year-long in all weathers, it would be my choice over the V. The S40 is a little easier to handle, carries a load better, and the more upright position might make rain riding a bit safer. You can fit fenders onto a V, but you can really fit fenders onto an S. The S40 is also the better choice for group rides (the V is so efficient and fast that you will either coast a lot, or be off the front and eventually out of sight, making the rest wonder why you bothered to show up for a group ride in the first place. The S40 is also a more draftable bike, while no one wants to try to draft off of a V).

I did sell my S40 because I suffered deal-breaking recumbutt on it, whereas I have no such trouble on the V because the more reclined seat angle puts less weight on my bum. But plenty of people ride the S40 with no recumbutt pain, suggesting that it is more of a personal anatomy issue than a bike design issue. Ideally, you'd be able to try one first, to see if you would have that particular problem. If I didn't suffer S40 recumbutt, I'd have it and the V20, because wow, what a combo!

Finally, while the S40 is not as fast as the V20, it's still pretty damned fast, and can more than hold its own with a pack of upright riders, once you have your bent legs.

 

[Andrew Wilson]

Buy the V20, and change the seat and you end up with a V30. I was on the fence about getting an S40 as I was getting tired of having to rely on the neck rest all the time and wanted to sit up a bit. Put on my old CF seat from my Optima Baron and BOOM....Perfect. I can ride a bit more upright and dont need the neck rest, but can uses it when I want.

 

[Seth Cooper]

I've done some commuting on my V20, about 24 miles each way. I generally avoid rain, although I have been caught out a few times. Rain on a recumbent isn't as bad as a DF I think, the seat keeps water off you, as does the rear bag. My route has a lot of MUPs and I sometimes use them and sometimes not, but when on the path I have to slow down when the it crosses driveways because the bumps can be bad, on a recumbent you can get bounced a lot more than on a DF (and that is both with narrow tires, go up to gravel tires of course helps).

So unless you have long stretches of smooth pavement, I would say get the S40.

 

[poq]

Oh yeah, I had forgotten how much I hated hitting the seams in what Denver calls “pavement” on skinny tires at 100psi. I don’t think I could give up 35mm tires; otherwise I suppose I’d already be riding a TT bike!

 

[cpml123]

I have V20, S40 and Q45. I have bike racks on S40 and Q45 to carry things (lunch, clothing, etc) for commuting. I think it's more challenging to try to put a rack on V20. I have 40mm tubeless tires on both. Much better ride for city streets. I don't like to ride in the rain, but I signed up for a ride tomorrow and unfortunately it looks like it's going to rain. S40 it is. Fenders are mounted easily and still with 40mm tires.

 

[Henri]

Next to other, very different recumbents the V20c is my only Cruzbike. Had I bought a S40, I would surely still look at the V20c a bit, for its slightly higer top speed, but as I will ride with a large, aerodynamic tail box, that bit of additional frontal area probably wouldn't be that much more drag anyway. Also on inclines or when accalerating after a slowdown, when aero drag is not the main factor, and the less extreme seating position of the S40 might be beneficial for power output. Also the wider tires fitting a S40 could have lower rolling resistance on rougher grounds. And then there is the effect, that with a more stable seating position, better overview and wider tires you don't have to limit your speed voluntarily as much (on rough grounds or in unclear situations you might stop pedaling and brake more on a V20c, because the situation is more uncomfortable and more tense). So the speed difference can in practice be much lower, depending on the circumstances.
But then, having only the V20c, I am allways looking at the S40, mainly for its wider tire clearance and also for its mounting points for fenders and a rack. With the different seat, I have for the tailbox, my shoulders and neck are lifted a bit already, but otherwise I might find the seating position and neck angle a bit extreme for longer rides or rougher grounds.

The V20c is an extreme bike, fully focused on one thing. The S40 is already fast, just a bit less uncompromising. According to the 80-20-rule, you should get 80% the fastness with 20% of the sacrifices. (Not 80% of the mph, but 80% of the difference between a normal fast bike and an extremely fast bike, which is a small difference.) So V20c can do speed as well as possible and can't do much else, but the S40 can do speed nearly as well and can do a lot more at the same time.
Had I only one bike, I'd very much have the S40 over the V20c. But I already have other, much more capable bikes, so I don't really need the utility of the S40. I still miss the wider tires, though.


Oh and you will probably get the same discomfort from trying to keep a more aerodynamically optimised position on both bikes. That's something, that's in your blood. You'd do it on a TT bike and you'd probably do it on a cargo bike. But on a recumbent it feels way not as bad as on an upright bike.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I've never had or even ridden on an S40. It sounds like a great bike. If I had to give up riding my V20c and couldn't get another or a V20c for whatever reason I would look at an S40 before anything else available.

With that said, I am a speed junky and the only prescription is "More Cowbell!"


I have put fenders on my V20 just to see if I could even though I am a fair weather rider. However, I would rather use my current tailbox and a Scarab bag if needed for commuting and still be able to remove the Scarab bag for the fast rides. I am not sure if 700x28mm tires will be comfortable enough for your commute, but currently I am running 700x25mm Conti GP 5000TL on my Mavic CXR 60C wheels. It looks like I could go with 700x28 TLR or TLE tires if the road surfaces were rough enough. So, there are 2 reasons to go with a V20 instead.

I know, I am not helping much

 

[vmi1056]

Chiming in here. I have a V20c, Q45 and had an S40 (and loved it once I solved the recumbutt issue). When I had to decide to part with one, the S40 was the one that found a new home. I can’t add anything to what has already been said about the V20c, it’s an awesome machine, enough said. So this is a comment on why considering a Q might be something to think about.

If speed is primary, it comes in a solid 3rd place. However, if set up properly, you being a capable rider, you’ll be able to find some speed. Highly capable machine for long hauls, all the rack options you could want, wide range of tire options and for me, in stop and go situations, the best option of the three. Seat adjustability is another advantage as the other two don’t offer as much and comfort wise, very comfortable once you get it dialed in. My V20c and Q combo work well for me, You really can’t go wrong whichever way you decide and if you land on the S40 for your needs, you’ll be in good shape. Good luck.

 

[Henri]

I have a V20c, Q45 and had an S40 (and loved it once I solved the recumbutt issue). When I had to decide to part with one, the S40 was the one that found a new home.

Yeah, it's largely a question of how many bikes you are going to have. I first bought a do-it-all recumbent with off road capability, everyday capability, sporty capability - thinking, this would be my bike. Just the one Inwould have. Now I have seven and every one is great in some aspect and I barely need the original one in the middle anymore. Thats why I chose the more extreme V20c. (And still I think about getting the S40.) If it was my only bike or even just as my main bike, I doubt the V20c would interest me much.

 

[LarryOz]

If you are close to Hilton Head Island, come visit the Cruzeum. I have all the models that you can tide and compare - Plus I offer expert Cruzbike fit.
Give you a call at 828-216-7860 if you would like to chat about my opinion for you. Larry

 

[poq]

I am not sure if 700x28mm tires will be comfortable enough for your commute, but currently I am running 700x25mm Conti GP 5000TL on my Mavic CXR 60C wheels. It looks like I could go with 700x28 TLR or TLE tires if the road surfaces were rough enough. So, there are 2 reasons to go with a V20 instead.

Is a 28mm the widest tire that can fit on a V20c? What tire pressures are you running? I've gotten used to only 40-45 PSI in a 35mm tire, and even that is borderline punishing on about 2 miles of truly awful pavement on my commute. That may be the deciding factor against using a V20c for commuting. I'll be faster in practice on a wider tire if I'm being battered by the road surface.

The Q45 is intriguing and I hadn't really considered it. Suspension would be wonderful, and I imagine it doesn't affect pedaling efficiency very much given that it's on the non-drive wheel. However, I had hoped to transfer my GRX/105 2x11 road drivetrain onto my new bike, and there's no frameset option for the Q45. (And the complete bike comes with a different handlebar setup that wouldn't work with road brifters.) Plus, I do own two upright mountain bikes that I planned to keep, at least for now. I could see the Q45 replacing one of the two mountain bikes later, once my wallet has forgotten about the first Cruzbike purchase

If you are close to Hilton Head Island, come visit the Cruzeum. I have all the models that you can tide and compare - Plus I offer expert Cruzbike fit.
Give you a call at 828-216-7860 if you would like to chat about my opinion for you. Larry

Thanks Larry! Sadly I'm about 1,700 miles away in Denver, CO, so I won't be dropping by, but I appreciate the offer.

 

[Frito Bandito]

Is a 28mm the widest tire that can fit on a V20c? What tire pressures are you running? I've gotten used to only 40-45 PSI in a 35mm tire, and even that is borderline punishing on about 2 miles of truly awful pavement on my commute. That may be the deciding factor against using a V20c for commuting. I'll be faster in practice on a wider tire if I'm being battered by the road surface.

I think it depends on how wide the wheels are that you are running. I have gotten Schwalbe Ones at 700x28 on my V20, but you'd have to ask someone with a V20c what the widest they have gotten on theirs. For tubed, I always ran them around 100psi, and for tubeless I have kept them at around 80-90psi at the start of each ride. 35mm still isnt enough? Jeez! Yeah, I can see that knocking the V20 or V20c out of the running.

 

[Henri]

In my V20c I have a gravel wheelset with 25mm internal width (Nextie sixspoke). I tried a 32mm Vittoria Corsa Pro Control and it fits with little space. In the front 35mm might fit, if you like it tight.
With a smaller wheelset (27.5" / 650B / 584) I think the front should fit 40mm to 45mm and the rear about 50mm. If the front was wider I'd put 50-584 in it instantly I might still go for it, but I can't find any wheels as rad as my sixspokes… XD (Only MTB sixspokes that are less aero and too wide for 40mm tires)

 

[McWheels]

Hello poq; I'm not as fast as you, so I ride an S40 with mudguards, lights, rack, hub dynamo etc. I do notice the wind, but I also know anyone up-wrong near me is having it a lot worse. And even on an early S40 with the widest clearances the mudguards weren't perfectly allowed for, nor are they easy to take on and off, so they stay fitted. In fact the lighting wiring is integral to them at the back so there's no option to strip down for the races I don't do. That's a slightly longer way of saying that if you want rain protection, ability to absorb the bumbs, and luggage then it's a bit of a faff with an S40 but can be done elegantly. With a V20 it'd be like putting a roof rack on an Aston Martin - do-able, but definitely harder and is that really the point of it?

 

[chicorider]

Is a 28mm the widest tire that can fit on a V20c? What tire pressures are you running? I've gotten used to only 40-45 PSI in a 35mm tire, and even that is borderline punishing on about 2 miles of truly awful pavement on my commute. That may be the deciding factor against using a V20c for commuting. I'll be faster in practice on a wider tire if I'm being battered by the road surface.

I'm currently using 30mm tubeless tires on 21mm inner width rims on my V20c. 32mm would also fit pretty easily. Personally, I wouldn't go wider than that on a V20c because that is where you are starting to move away from the bike's intended purpose--to go fast.

I weigh 130 pounds and run both tires at 60psi. More than that and I am feeling the road a little more than I like. If I had a section of rough pavement that I routinely ride, I might bump it down to 55psi.