Power meter for Vendetta

[snilard]

This will be only theoretical discussion from myself, but I cannot hold myself back.
What power meter can be used with Vendetta? What power meter are you using on Vendetta?
There are some types that have to work by nature like pedal based, rear hub based solutions and also majority of crank arm based power meters. I know that Larry is using Garmin Vector. But what about spider based solutions like Power2Max, SRM, Quark or new PowerTap chainring solution? I am also curious about Rotor Power what uses MAS Spider. Will Pioneer power meter work?
Now a little bit of my point of view. My personal preference would be towards spider and crank arm based power meters. I don't want power meter to dictate me pedal system and I don't want to have power meter only in one wheel. While I think that spider based solutions cannot work with Vendetta I will end with crank arm solutions. That is not nice. Stages is only left side, 4iiii Precision and Watteam PowerBeat is just starting mass production so untested, Verve Infocrank is ugly, offered only in 170 mm or longer, Pioneer is Shimano only.

 

[ratz]

I'm using Stages Left Side only and getting workable numbers that aren't too far from what I get on the Kickr. Future plan is to move the Stages to Mrs Ratz and to get the Shoe based solution from Brimbrothers when it ships.

http://www.brimbrothers.com/product/

Oh that was cool drag and dropped that image directly from there webpage.......


I already ride Speedplay Zero's on the high end bikes so that will get me left and right data on all bikes without moving my pedals, it also give me complete crank freedom. I will have to go back to 3 hole shoes which I'm not happy about but, you can't have everything. If they fail to ship then it will be 4iii dual sided when they catch up on the back log. 4iii versus stages only because they are cost effective for both sides; otherwise I'd just stick with the stages.

Edit: The only thing driving the change for me is to get power on multiple bike with the lowest cost and simplicity of changing bikes.

 

[Eric Winn]

I'm quite happy with my Stages PM on my Vendetta. I'm not convinced power input per leg is all that big of a deal and there certainly is no issue with pedals as you can use whatver you want to.

What is probably more significant is which connection protocols are supported: ANT+ and/or BTLE.

I don't have any ANT+ devices so ANT+ only is a non-starter for me.

 

[snilard]

Bob, Eric thank You both for answer.

Bob, have you ever measured some really long ride on Kickr? I am sure that my pedalling style is different for short rides compared to long >20 hours brevets. PM from Brim Brothers is nice but 15 hours of operation on single charge is real deal breaker for me.

I also have only head units with BLE (iPhone and Suunto Ambit3), but there are ANT+ to BLE converters offered by more than one company. So while I really like dual protocol support on Stages, 4iiii, PowerBeat and new PowerTaps I don't see only ANT+ as real deal breaker.

I like 4iiii Precision but more I like Watteam PowerBeat because they have sensor and pod as two devices so you can buy more sensors for low price and glue it to each cranks and move pod between bikes. And of course at the first place price of PowerBeat. I My actual bike is different from Vendetta in every aspect but pedals from PM view. 4sq taper crankset 22/32/46, 26" driven rear wheel with 135 mm disc hub and ~2 m of chain tubes with non constant friction + one chain pulley, Speedplay Frog what I really like. I am looking in advice for cheap PM what I will move to Vendetta one time when I collect money for it.

 

[ratz]

Kickr max I can stomach stationary is about 8 hours. Over that range the Stages matches the kickr really well. Just a few dropouts when comparing the data. Error different within about +- 1%. But I'm more balanced left/right on the trainer than I am on the road. For the Brim's I was also comtemplating the time factor for long 300+ mile events. Still contemplating what's next. I've used the Wahoo Ant+ RFLKT+ bridge works well. for iphone and android.

 

[Eric Winn]

I've used the Wahoo Ant+ RFLKT+ bridge

What exactly do you mean by this? Edit: I watched the Wahoo video on how to do this so, yeah, that would work well but I have had terrible battery life with my RFLKT+ and those batteries (and the unit itself) are quite expensive... Does it burn through more battery when it is functioning as an ANT+ bridge?

Comment: Well this was cool. Using my iPad I can embed the video just by providing the URL link without having to worry about any embed markup.

I know I can get a Wahoo ANT+ dongle to stick on my iPhone but I would prefer not too since I plug in an external battery for ultra type stuff. I haven't looked to see if the dongle supports daisy chaining an external battery. Any idea if it does?

 

[ratz]

All last season I ran an ANT+ Speed Sensor and Heart rate monitor. Those connected to my iPhone via Bluetooth through my RFLKT+ which connected to each of them via ANT+. I helped Wahoo debug the battery issues. For the entire summer I did burn through 4 batteries in the RFLKT+ but 3 of those were before we fixed the firmware problems. The last battery lasted 3 full months on the final firmware and it was good and stable. The only real bad battery performance now on the RFLKT+ is if you run the backlight all the time; then the batteries are toast.

Note: to make sure the RFLKT+ battery last long always "iphone swipe quit the wahoo app" or "turn off iphone BT" in the presence of the RFLKT+ and make sure the the RFLKT powers down. If you don't it has a bad habit of staying on but with the screen off if you walk away with the phone for good; but leave the RFLKT+ next to your other sensors. I also had a bad Stages firmware that use to burn through batteries too. Stages gave me a new crank and the problem went away.

Now that I have the Edge 1000 of course I get to play the debug game all over again. But so far the 1000 is a dream; and the new JouleGPS versuion just released also looks really sweet for a lot less cash.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

new JouleGPS versuion just released also looks really sweet for a lot less cash.

I've never heard of this cycle computer. Hoping to get a new one this summer, but can't budget the Garmin 1000. Maybe this would be an alternative to the Garmin 510, but less money?

 

[ratz]

The joule was my next choice. Right after I pulled the trigger on the 1000 this was announced http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/01/sneak-powertap-products.html which basically says that cycleops has a new version due the fixes the short comings of the old version.

You in short get the best head unit for training with power for a good price and the only thing it lacks is map based turn by turn. Still has bread crumb navigation like the 500 series. I am pretty sure I would have been equally happy when this unit ships.

The review of the old model is here http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2012/11/cycleops-joule-gps-in-depth-review.html

 

[snilard]

As a ANT+ to BLE bridge I would prefer O-synce coachsmart (http://www.o-synce.com/en/products/bike/coachsmart.html). RFLKT+ needs iPhone or Android phone to show any numbers. I have switched my bulky iPhone 5 to mych smaller Suunto Ambit3 as my head unit last winter.

I would like to mention one feature of ANT what BLE lacks, what I really like on ANT. ANT slave device can by connected to more than one master device and one ANT device can act as master and slave in same moment. This allows one sensor to be connected to more than one head units. And it allows sensor to receive data from another sensor use it and than send some other data to head unit. BLE is strictly master or slave and slave can be connected to only one master.

 

[LarryOz]

Yes, I have Garmin Vector pedals and am very happy with them. I really like that I can move them to any bike rather quickly. I have adopted to the look pedals system nicely so that is not a real problem for me either.
I really wanted left-right data since I had major knee reconstruction a while ago and I wanted to be able to compare left and right data to observe if my left side is doing it's fair share, when and why, etc.
I am also very impressed with the battery life on these things. I ride with them forever... ~ 150 hours or so. Just simple 3032 batteries, so not rechargeable, but not a big deal either since they last so long.
The Brimbrothers solution looks really nice and I would probably try them, but the 15 hour battery life is kind of a show stopper for me at this point. Seems like they should be able to do much better than that.
(I wonder if you could charge them while your riding. Strap a small USB battery pack to your ankle and plug in with a USB cable. That is how I keep my Garmin head unit, VIRB camera, smart phone going for extended periods. Luckily I don't have to strap a battery pack to my body for those!)
Gary had found some other startup power unit that is due out this summer I think, can't remember what it was though - I'm sure Gary will enlighten us next time he visits the forum!

 

[ratz]

I would like to mention one feature of ANT what BLE lacks, what I really like on ANT. ANT slave device can by connected to more than one master device and one ANT device can act as master and slave in same moment. This allows one sensor to be connected to more than one head units.

That is my favorite feature of ANT+

 

[snilard]

That is my favorite feature of ANT+

This is why I would like to go with ANT+ only PM rather than BLE only PM. Dual protocol PM would be the best.

 

[Lief]

I use an older Joule GPS with a Powertap hub - purchased pretty cheaply on Wheelbuilder last Spring. Tim is loaning me his Joule.
Some drawbacks - this model takes a REALLY long time to find satellites - sometimes as much as 10 min.
Also noted is how difficult it can be to share the powermeter - one bike is 10sp the other is 11sp - having something on the pedals would be awesome; if it's effective.
The computer itself is kinda-non-intuitive (DCRainmaker reviewed it correctly).
PLUS
Something went south with a driver in my Mac and now I can't even run the Powertap software anymore - but GoldenCheetah works just dandy for rides.
In order to update the firmware on the Joule I'll need to get a machine running Powertap software tho.

I like it - but there is probably better solutions out there now.

 

[SamP]

Samsung and Sony now have a bunch of phones that now have ANT+ support, and there are Android bike computer apps that can take advantage of that support. Check the directory at thisisant.com (Look under the Consumer menu and select the "ANT+ in Phones and Tablets" link). Also, there are dongles for other Android phones and iPhones.

I have an ancient 2009 era Sony phone with ANT+ and use the IpBike app (whose interface is not friendly but is otherwise pretty powerful)

 

[jond]

hi guys i have been using a powertap hub g3 a few years. over 30k on the hub before i had to change out the non drive wheel bearing as it was getting a bit rough. i was able to change it out myself quite easily and while i was at it changed out the drive side too despite it being in good condition. the wheel has proved accurate reliable and consistent. i pair it ant+ with garmin edge 500. when i have attained basic skills on the vendetta i will fit the powertap hub to the bike. i note that powertap have two new platforms now in the works. pedal based and chainring based. for versatility/practicality i do not think you can beat a shoe or pedal based system but they are expensive comparitively and i would not run them say on a mtn bike in the bush. the other advantage of pedal/shoe systems is measuring right left power if this is important to you. dc rainmaker has for years given the powertap hub the thumbs up as a reliable accurate power meter. of course you might need two hubs for two wheels once for racing and one for training which of course is the drawback but certainly more portable than a spider system or crank based system if you have more than one bike or platform (that would be all of us right . i thoroughly recommend you take a look at dc rainmaker's power meter roundup which is mostly current and do your research for your needs . the weight of the hub by the way is comparitive to many non power meter hubs. it is the one metric that i would loathe to not have access to. i use power to guage my effort accurately so i do not blow out or undercook myself. there is no other way as heart rate is variable eg dehydration/illness etc

 

[snilard]

Jond, thank you for your opinion.
Ray Maker is my favorit source of information about electronic bike gadgets He is doing really great job for comunity.
I like PoweTap hub because it is proven and relatively cheap. As bonus it works with Q-rings. I don't like that it is ANT+ or BLE but not booth together. How I have written before my actual bike has 26" wheel and chain tubes with unknown inconstant power loss. But yes, I can imagine to use new G3 disc hub (http://www.powertap.com/product/powertap-g3-rear-disc-hub).

 

[Abbott Smith]

So I've been reading along in this thread and realized that I need a bit more information. We bent riders tend to obsess about technical details. It goes with the territory. I'm trying to gauge whether tracking power output is simply geeking out or whether it has value to a non-competitive rider. Can someone please explain the overall value of power output to the eavesdropping Philistine?

 

[snilard]

So I've been reading along in this thread and realized that I need a bit more information. We bent riders tend to obsess about technical details. It goes with the territory. I'm trying to gauge whether tracking power output is simply geeking out or whether it has value to a non-competitive rider. Can someone please explain the overall value of power output to the eavesdropping Philistine?

If you want to just ride, power meter is only expensive gadget.
Power meter is training device. You can simply measure your strengths a weaknesses by PM as same as your fitness. You can train with PM in exact intensity to train specific part of your metabolism. You can use PM for pacing on steady efforts like time trials.
Power of PM is in post ride computer analysis. It can tell you a lot about yourself and your training if you know how to read it.
PM is better training companion that heart rate monitor. Heart rate is highly affected by other than actual intensity factors. After café, my HR is ~10 beats higher. Power is your actual output what moves you forward.

Except café effect on my HR this is what I have read in books, I train with HR monitor. My next bike investment will be used Vendetta or PM for my actual recumbent

 

[Abbott Smith]

If you want to just ride, power meter is only expensive gadget.
Power meter is training device. You can simply measure your strengths a weaknesses by PM as same as your fitness. You can train with PM in exact intensity to train specific part of your metabolism. You can use PM for pacing on steady efforts like time trials.
Power of PM is in post ride computer analysis. It can tell you a lot about yourself and your training if you know how to read it.
PM is better training companion that heart rate monitor. Heart rate is highly affected by other than actual intensity factors. After café, my HR is ~10 beats higher. Power is your actual output what moves you forward.

Except café effect on my HR this is what I have read in books, I train with HR monitor. My next bike investment will be used Vendetta or PM for my actual recumbent

Thanks snilard. I train with a heart rate monitor as well. For now that will do, but it's nice to know there are options.