Q-ring/front derailleur issue

[twhbent]

Asking for some guidance trying to dial in my front derailleur(sram force, not the force 22) with q-rings.

Two issues I'm experiencing:

1-over shifting onto the large ring or not shifting at all. I can get it to shift maybe 1 out of 5 times correctly(that being the first of the five), (will not repeat shifting correctly) the rest it oversights or undershirts. I have positioned the derailleur parallel as well as a number of different orientations with the same results.

2-the chain rubs on the bottom part of the derailleur. I have tried the tooth chain ring/derailleur cage ratio spacing from the recommended 1.5mm(terrible rubbing) up to 5mm and beyond which removes the rubbing but doesn't do anything for the shifting.

I reinstalled my round crankset and adjusted the front derailleur and had it shifting every time after several minutes.

The q-rings/front derailleur combination is winning the battle but the war is not over yet. I've watched youtube videos and even tried the tapered spacers and the qxl spacer which actually made it worse.

Has anyone else experienced this issue and then found the correct setup?

I'm not opposed to using a different brand derailleur to remedy the problem.

Thank you for any help in advance.

 

[Bruce B]

I have a 10 speed SRAM drive train and 50-34 Q-Rings with a SRAM Force 22 Yaw Front Derailleur. With the big ring I can use the entire 12-32 cassette.

With the small ring I can use 14-32. Chain rubs the front derailleur using 12-13.

The Yaw Front Derailleur has been a great addition which I have used for about 18 months on the Vendetta and previous to that on a Silvio 1.0.

 

[twhbent]

Bruce B, thank you for sharing your experience.

I forgot to mention my setup which also is Sram 10 spd drive train and 52/36 q-rings, 11-28 cassette and double tap Force brighters.

I'm thinking I should be able to just change out the derailleur with the Sram Yaw and use the remaining existing components without any issues.

I hope that is correct, I will give it a go.

Thanks again Bruce B.

 

[ratz]

The Yaw front derailleur is actually one of the easiest to install and setup; especially with Qring. BUT it's completely different than a normal derailleur. Out of the box new; if you follow the instructions exactly it's pretty easy to get it correct. However re-doing one or reinstalling one can be tricky if you don't do one key step that I never see mentioned.

When the derailleur ship new to you; the Lower Limit screw was cranked all the way in; and was pushing the derailleur into the big ring position. The Lower limit screw is actually extra low to do this just for setup purposes.

So to reinstall or completely retune a YAW derailleur you need to return it to factory default settings.

(1) Remove the chain
(2) Remote the cable
(3) Loosen the upper limit screw so that it's not stopping the FD from moving to far outboard.
(4) Adjust the lower limit screw all the way in until the derailleur is all the way out to the big ring position.

Now the derailleur is in the original factory position. and you can proceed with the simple normal setup.
IF you follow the directions correctly it should work on the first try.

Here are some very simple and straight forward instructions

http://thedailygrind.robdamanii.com/2013/04/26/installing-sram-yaw-front-derailleur/

With Qrings you need to make sure you figure out which Tooth on your ring is the tallest and use that for setting the height.

I have put Yaw's on 8 different Silvios and Vendetta's now; both with Qrings and Round rings; all worked flawless after setup. However in the beginning until I learn to reset to factory and start over, when doing major changes I had a lot of problems getting them adjusted. At this point I think I can install one in about 4 minutes.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

What Ratz said exactly. I also have the yaw force 22, worth it's weight in gold and in my mind the best fd available when working with extreme gearing such as mine. 34-52 Q's chainrings and 12-42 cassette. I can use all gearing with no rubbing. However, small and small has about 1-2 chain links of slop, but is useable in rare occasions. Like Bob said the yaw's first or second installation seems strange, but after you understand it, very easy to setup, reset up, or adjust. I must say like usual, srams instructions suck.

 

[ratz]

I must say like usual, srams instructions suck.

+5

 

[twhbent]

Bruce, Ratz, and Rick, thank you all for your helpful insight into my problem.

I have a new Yaw FD on order. Will repost after installation.

Thank you.

 

[ReklinedRider]

to redo a yaw, go to the Art's Cyclery SRAM Yaw video on YouTube. (take notes! ) I've had to redo Yaw FD's several times due to switching them out on different bikes. Not to mention goobering them up due to my mechanical ineptitude.

'Daniel' for Art's Cyclery does a good job explaining how to readjust one that has been moved from the factory settings.

 

[twhbent]

Will do, thanks for the help RR.

 

[twhbent]

I had been watching and watching the above mentioned articles for installing the Yaw f/d in preparation for the install.
The Yaw arrived Sat and was installed later that evening. Much to my disappointment I still had the same rub problem.
I should have been more specific as to the rubbing, the rubbing was actually on the underneath side of the derailleur and not the inside part of either side of the derailleur cage.
Setting the large crank to the derailleur recommended clearance of 1-2mm the chain would always rub the underneath part of the derailleur that bridges the area that is used for attaching to the braze on.
Didn't matter how wide the clearance there was always the chain rub issue in the 4 largest dia cassette gears.
I had actually tried the small tapered shim that is part of the q-ring front derailleur shim kit in hopes of changing the f/d angle for more clearance but that had failed in earlier attempts to correct the issue.
No it wasn't the Yaw derailleur or the previous derailleurs. It was actually the tubing that the braze on tab is welded to that the f/d is mounted on.
After some head scratching and trying to figure out what was going on, it dawned on me to try and move/align the tubing toward the boom which would also change the derailleur angle for chain clearance.
So I inserted the blade end of a large phillips screw driver into the tubing and carefully pulled the tubing upwards until the chain cleared the underneath side of the derailleur.
Not sure how the tubing had become misaligned but I have been fighting this under neath rubbing since I installed the Q-Ring set, which has been for some time now.
There was no issue with the rubbing when I was using the round crank set.
Spun the crank with the chain on the large q-ring and woohoo no more rubbing. After a sigh of relief I reinstalled the Yaw f/d and the bike is now shifting like it should.
I actually tried both of the recommended installation procedures above and went with Art's Cyclery's recommendation.
Rick you are right on about Srams instruction sucking.

Rick,RR,Bruce and Ratz, thank you so much for your help.

 

[ratz]

Curious was it the front or rear bridge that rubbed. It almost sounds like you have more teeth delta than the capacity of the derailleur. Bend the stem would solve that. What size are you front rings and what is the big and little size of your cassette. I would like to do the math and see if it was a capacity issue or if it was a bent arm. The math will answer that.

 

[twhbent]

Ratz,
It was the rear of the bridge, using a 52/36 q-ring with a 11/28 cassette.

 

[ratz]

Ok so that's a Front Derailleur Capacity of 16 See calculator.
The Yaw's have a max capacity of 16.

So if you couldn't get it to work even with an angle shim you either did have a bent stem -or- you have a Large Chain stay and you are shorter than the frame was designed for. That would mean a really short boom and a steep chain angle that would put it into a position of hard interference with the derailleur as described.

 

[twhbent]

Ratz, great detective work.
You are correct in your findings that this bike does have the large chain stay. I purchased the bike used from JAE1969(only 50 miles from me) after we determined that it could be adjusted to fit me.
I'm 5'11" with a 42 inch x-seam. I cut 1" off of the aluminum slider and have the fit dialed in.
Yes I agree a medium chain stay would be preferable(especially for exiting the bike) but not able to locate one after the purchase.
I have considered selling this bike and looking for another yellow Vendetta with the medium chain stay but for now I'll ride this set up.
This rubbing issue is the only problem I have encountered having the large chain stay set up for my fit.
Thank you for taking the time and interest in this matter.

 

[Jeremy S]

you have a Large Chain stay and you are shorter than the frame was designed for. That would mean a really short boom and a steep chain angle that would put it into a position of hard interference with the derailleur as described

I thought the introduction of the FD mounting stalk was supposed to solve this sort of problem (versus attaching the FD directly to the boom) since the stalk does not rotate with the boom during adjustment, but stays at a constant angle to the chainstay?

 

[castlerobber]

Didn't matter how wide the clearance there was always the chain rub issue in the 4 largest dia cassette gears.

I'm having exactly this problem with my Silvio 1.5 in the 50T Q-ring with the Force 22 Yaw FD, despite repeated adjustments over the past year. No chain rub with the 34T Q-ring; I can do everything except cross-chain (because the chain rubs the back of the big ring).

I had actually tried the small tapered shim that is part of the q-ring front derailleur shim kit in hopes of changing the f/d angle for more clearance but that had failed in earlier attempts to correct the issue.

I had considered ordering that. You may have saved me a few dollars and some frustration.

 

[ratz]

I thought the introduction of the FD mounting stalk was supposed to solve this sort of problem (versus attaching the FD directly to the boom) since the stalk does not rotate with the boom during adjustment, but stays at a constant angle to the chainstay?

It doesn't have a low enough reach at the extreme angles, and at his X-seam that boom must be almost horizontal. Same thing happens on a Q20/Q26 if you put a front derailleur on it; in the shortest settings you get this same problem. Steve H (@scabinetguy) has made a derailleur stalk addon that will solve the problem you cut off the end of the stalk and attach his beefier end and you get a lower reach and a bigger surface. Both are helpful for Di2 installs....The challenge then will be not rubbing on the top part of the derailleur.

I'm having exactly this problem with my Silvio 1.5 in the 50T Q-ring with the Force 22 Yaw FD, despite repeated adjustments over the past year. No chain rub with the 34T Q-ring; I can do everything except cross-chain (because the chain rubs the back of the big ring).

That one you are pretty much stuck with a ring that is smaller than 36 and an 11 on the back you likely get chain rub on the inside of the back ring; the angle can't be defeated unless you push the crank out with spacers on the BB and that's going to mess with the Q-factor and might bring about knee pain.

One good trick is to change out the 34T for a 36T QXL ring; or a 38QXL those both will climb like the 34T or actually better, will but will cross chain better because of the bigger diameter. We switched to 38QXL/52Q-Aero and I'm pretty pleased with the change.

 

[castlerobber]

That one you are pretty much stuck with a ring that is smaller than 36 and an 11 on the back you likely get chain rub on the inside of the back ring

I'm good without the small-small 34-12 for now, but will keep an eye out for a used 36T QXL. I'd much rather have use of the 50-28 and 50-32 combos; having the 50-36 available would be a bonus.

 

[Jeremy S]

It doesn't have a low enough reach at the extreme angles, and at his X-seam that boom must be almost horizontal. Same thing happens on a Q20/Q26 if you put a front derailleur on it; in the shortest settings you get this same problem. Steve H (@scabinetguy) has made a derailleur stalk addon that will solve the problem you cut off the end of the stalk and attach his beefier end and you get a lower reach and a bigger surface. Both are helpful for Di2 installs....The challenge then will be not rubbing on the top part of the derailleur.

Quest doesn't come with an FD. It looks like QX100 has the FD attached to the boom. If you added an FD to your Quest, I assume you clamped it to the boom? Different situation from the V or S with FD mounting stalk, where the FD does not move with the boom, but is fixed relative to the chainstay.

 

[twhbent]

I had considered ordering that. You may have saved me a few dollars and some frustration.

Castlerobber, if you would like to try that spacer, send me a pm with your mailing info and I will mail the tapered part to you. If it works it's yours.

Ratz, again/still you are correct about the horizontal position of the boom.