qrings on Silvio

[randyspann]

- Well I took the plunge: qrings. (rotorbikeusa.com)
I had been fighting with myself: couldn't justify the expense. After all I usually ride with my wife (and have to keep the pace down). Finally in an impulsive move I ordered the qrings, I'm running a 52/38/26 triple 130 BCD, so I got the 53/39 qrings.
Installation was a breeze. And with John T.'s excellent setup document (here, search qrings), and rotor's document on setup for recumbents, the setup wasn't too diffucult either. Just setup with the max diameter of each ring's chain engagement at 70% of power stroke. I will use this as my inital setup, later, after some hours on the rings, I may experiment with the timing.
My fears: shifting would go to pot. Fears unfounded, shifting was just a smooth as before. Maybe even better because I took pains to get the FD "just right".
Initial impressions: Well, only one ride so far. But I noticed a difference right away. LIke places I would normally ride in the middle ring, I now go to the big ring. It's like 2 gears difference. Maybe 1-3 mph faster. That's for crusing. Power/mashing: same thing 1-2 gears higher, definately more effecient. Spinning: spinning seems a little better too, I could spin in the high 90's smoothly. On the whole it just feels more efficient. I turned in the fastest average by about 1.5 mph on one of my one hour training loops.
How to justify? Well I figure if one likes to get his cruzbike setup "spot on" and enjoys the sport more than just the casual rider, why not?

 

[kenhardwick]

Then, you should install Ultegra Di2

Pretty cool Randy...maybe should go ahead and spend the money on Ultegra Di2 while you are upgrading...just a couple of more dollars
Go Sooners...

 

[John Dorlon]

If you don't mind...

Hi Randy -

Please post a follow up after you've had some more experience with them. I like your initial impression, but I'm wondering if you will find that you are consistently faster with them, and by how much.

I recently learned about what Jens Voigt tells himself when his legs hurt and he wants to keep pedelling hard - "Shut up legs, I'll tell you what to do". So I started trying that on my 35 mile Wednesday rides, and I have to say, it really helps (3 Wednesday rides in a row now). Now I'm wondering if I can get away with that on my longer Saturday rides. We'll see.

If the QRings are the real deal, and I'm a good boy, I'm hoping Santa will bring me some this year.

-John

 

[randyspann]

follow up -- not yet!

- John -
- Well I have a few more miles on the qrings. I still think I accelerate faster with the qrings and spend more time in the large ring, up front. Average speeds, well probably don't have enough data just yet. I do know that when I really hammer hard and go for a super workout, I don't have sore legs and knees the next day like before.

- Ken, re: Di2 .... ! Ain't got that kind of money! (Sooners 2-0)

 

[bikeday]

Top Derailleur clearance

Randy:
I'm curious how you managed to get sufficient clearance with a 53 tooth Q ring. I installed a 52 tooth Q ring on a Silvio V1 with a FSA Omega triple (50/39/30)crankset. My Shimano 105 triple FD contacted the pointy tooth at the major OD of the chain ring in two locations. The very bottom and the bend at the outside side plate. I solved the problem by dropping the FD down one mounting position which changed the angle slightly and then did some filing of the FD at the contact points. With a 53 tooth chain ring I can only imagine that your clearance problem would be worse than mine.

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi Randy,
(*cough cough

Hi Randy,

(*cough cough cough*) Pictures (*cough cough cough*).

Thanks.

 

[randyspann]

RE: Top Derailleur clearance

- Bikeday - I did much the same thing. Mounted the FD in the left mounting holes. I could then raise enough to get clearance. As you said tweek (bend) the plate to get concentric alignment. I works, but if you peruse the documentation on Front Derailers, you will think that it couldn't be done! Fortunately, I didn't do that. The big ring height rises to about that of a 56 tooth ring at the max point!

- Charles - Guess I should work on some pictures, I found a way using a smartphone app that shows level/incline in degrees. That makes configuring crank placement easy. Find bottom dead center, while on the bike. Get the angle of the crank arm with the smartphone app. Subtract 70 degrees from BDC and use the smartphone app to place the crank arm at that point. Then move the qrings to max tooth at chain engagement point, and bolt it all up.

I'm finding that I can average abount .5 to 1.5 mph faster with qrings. Don't have a lot of data points, so that is not firm just yet. I think that my average should be a little faster because I find I'm accelerating faster and riding one or two gears higher. The problem is that it's so much fun to go that fast that I tend to over-extend and run out of gas at the end! Even though I'm training too hard with the qrings, I have no leg soreness of any kind the next day, and recovery is not a problem.

I am now starting to use a heart rate monitor to try to pace myself better. But with winter coming and running out of light early (New England, USA) training session opportunities are harder to come by. Still working out with the Silvio on a trainer.

 

[randyspann]

Pictures -

- As they say "A picture is worth a thousand words". So here's pictures of my setup. (Hope I did it correctly!)

1) Determine BDC, bottom dead center, the bottom of your pedal stroke. I found mounting the Silvio on the trainer helpful. Important to get this right, so pedal on the trainer til you can feel the exact bottom of your stroke. And measure where that's at -- I used a smartphone app called "XClinometer", I found the app to be quite accurate.

As you can see here, it's at -12 degrees
We want the apex of the qring to engage at 70 degrees before BCD.
So I want the apex of the qring to engage the chain at +58 degrees (70 - 12 = 58)

The red line is where the chain first engages the qring and it's at the highest point (apex)

I did this for both qrings 53 tooth and 39 tooth and found they lined up apex to apex at the same bolt-up point.

-- Well, this is how I set it up. I 'think' it's correct?

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi Randy,
Thanks for the

Hi Randy,

Thanks for the pictures, they help a lot.

As far as whether or not you did it right, it depends on how your leg hits the crank. You wan the chain to be as far away from the bottom bracket when you are on the power part of your stroke. So a change in the TFT can change the angle at which you should have your cranks rotated.

What I would consider doing (and I have no experience here) is this:

Have somebody take pictures of you sitting on the bike with your leg at various angles. Figure out where your legs are where you are putting the most power on the pedals and that will get you close to the right answer. If you do take these pictures, please do post them as I think a lot of people could learn about this by watching you go through this process.

John will be able to answer questions like do you want it to peak at exactly the peak of your stride, a little before, a little after, etc.

Depending on how easy it is to change the angle, I can imagine trying to rotate it a few degrees forwards and backwards to see if you can tell any difference.

Thanks,
Charles

 

[randyspann]

Hi Charles

- Hi Charles -- I'm referencing http://cruzbike.com/adjusting-elliptical-or-ovoid-chainwheels where in John T.'s blog he says the max power happens at 70 degrees before BDC. As I understand it, after some many hours of experience with riding at a setting, one would develop a feel, so as to be able to compare with a change in the engagement point. Engage sooner for power/mashing, later for spinning. Everything I've read, this usually serves to verify that the initial 70 degrees was the best after all.
Qring adjustment is per individual, that's why the importance of finding 'your' BDC. Changing TFT, and many other variables requires a re-do on this process.

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi Randy.
Thanks for the

Hi Randy.

Thanks for the link. I've seen it in the past, but didn't remember it very well.

Here's John's picture.

I like it because it explains quite nicely what is going on. Two points:

* Crank leverage can change quite a bit for different people or when changing either your position or TFT.

* It's not obvious to me that you want the maximum radius to be located at the peak of the red curve. You see how the red curve rises more slowly than it drops (that is, how it falls off more slowly to the left of the peak than the right). This suggests to me that you may want to move the maximum radius to be earlier ( e.g., toward 80 degrees).

The latter point suggests that depending on the actual curve for a given rider setup on a given bike, you may want rings that are more irregular than eliptical. I think you want the radius as a function of angle closer to the red curve than what it is now. (Clearly we wouldn't want to match it exactly as we don't want a zero-radius chain ring )

Cheers,
Charles

p.s. If you ever get around to taking pictures of your leg at various angles, please do post them as I think they would help explain what's going on for those who haven't experienced q-rings.

 

[randyspann]

I agree!

Charles - I agree, something's amiss! I actually changed the qring timing when I did the pictures (I was trying to document for myself and others a reproducable method). But after riding, the timing was worse. Before the pictures, I had the timing where the "apex" was happening earlier in the pedal stroke. So it's back to the drawing board. Aggrivated by loosing the riding season (unless I want to do rides in the dark!). What is amazing to me, is how easily I can feel the difference. I think I could almost get a close "correct for me" timing by feel alone! And over the winter I think I will install a qring 27tooth granny. When I drop from the middle qring to a round granny, the power loss is noticable.

 

[Charles.Plager]

HI Randy,
As getting the

HI Randy,

As getting the right curves for yourself is actually non-trivial, it is not crazy to go about it "by feel." Part of the reason I say this is that it isn't clear to me if one should put the apex to match exactly the peak or not.

You might be able to do this on a trainer:

- Start with the peak too early. See how well you "ride" (whether that be heart rate to speed on a trainer or how well you ride some standard course.

- Move it a notch forward, repeat until you've moved the peak too late.

Decide what you like best and stay there.

As I've said before, I've never used eliptical rings myself, but I do think that the science behind them is at the very least "very plausible*" if not much higher. The world's best cyclists use them (e.g., Wiggo, Maria ) and if you can find the placement that makes you happy, even if they aren't exactly 70 degrees, then I think you're golden.

Cheers,
Charles

* The physics behind the arugment for e-rings is solid. I'm a physicist (by training), not a biomechanist, so I can't state with any authority that this is the right thing to do and I do have enough psychology under my belt to know the placebo effect is a very real phenomena. Note that the placebo effect works both ways here. It is possible that the reason these didn't catch on is in fact because people didn't want to like them and therefore didn't.

 

[noahvale]

This is how mine are set up.

This is how mine are set up. Same as when I had them on the Bacchetta for the past 5 years.

 

[John Tolhurst]

The chain up take angle is

The chain up take angle is central to the setting. The chain up take angle is different, so the setting would be different.

 

[Tuloose]

I know this is a divisive

I know this is a divisive subject that has knocked around BROL and other bike specific sites ever since Q Rings came out. There are the True Believers and the few Skeptics out there.
I have tried Q Rings and in my opinion they make no difference at all. If there is a difference it is so small that I cannot notice it.
I have Q Rings on my P- 38 and when I switch to my Silvio, which has a standard Ultegra triple, I notice no difference in pedaling cadence, ease of pedaling or better climbing ability. I really didn't notice any difference when I switched from standard to Q's on the P-38. Certainly there is a marked difference between the 2 bikes but as far as getting on the Silvio and thinking "gee, I wish I had my Q Rings on here" that just has not happened. Given a double blind test between 2 identical bikes, one with Q's and the other standard, I believe I would not be able to discern any difference.
A friend of mine tried Q's after he saw mine and he had the same experience as me.

Why all the claims and testimonials for the purported benefits of Q Rings then?
I think it is a placebo effect.
Once a person is convinced to pay the premium price for a set of non standard chain rings because of all the testimonials they have read they have a preconceived bias to believe all the hype.

If there is something to the "Q Effect" then science, not anecdotal accounts and a bunch of charts, should be able to provide the proof.

 

[John Tolhurst]

That Q rings don't help one

That Q rings don't help one is not proof they help no one.

 

[Robert Holler]

I have used Q Rings on all of

I have used Q Rings on all of my recumbent bikes and trikes for several years and love the way they feel when set up properly. May give them a shot on the Silvio, but may wait until I get a second Vendetta (personal bike) and go for them at that time.

I have found that they give me a 1-2 gear advantage, particularly when climbing.

Robert

 

[Rposar]

Q-Ring Adjustment Issue?

I recently sold my Silvio 1.0, on which I had installed Q-Rings. They worked great, seemed to give me more gearing and a little better top speed. When I attempted to install them on the Silvio 2.0, I could never get the full range of gears. The derailer dubs on either the largest or smallest gear. I can not seem to get it adjusted to get the full range of gears. I finally gave up and replaced my regular rings and have no issues shifting. I am considering attempting to install them on my Vendetta 2.0, to see if I have similar issues. Any one else having adjustment/shifting issues with Q-Rings?

 

[noahvale]

If you spin at a high cadence

If you spin at a high cadence and your pedal stroke is even, then you probably would not benefit. I don't spin, I mash. I find that without Q-rings I get knee pain, a lot of it. After trying to get used to round rings on my trike, I switched it to Q-rings as well. No more knee pain.

It does take some work to adjust them properly. They work great on my Silvio with Sram Force shifters. Full range of gears with both rings. I use 53/39 rings.